Your thoughts on social justice and other American cultural issues?

[amanda1983]

Miii doesn't listen to anything that's on HuffPost even if it is 100% true

Oh, sorry, I use this article as the main starter for anyone new to "white privilege" or intersectionality in feminism. I've not had any complaints about the site - is this a widespread issue? Or just personal bias/opinion? I have *loads* of good articles I can link, but obviously no need to bother if any source would be equally ignored regardless of credentials. I've just found this particular article to be the best "entry point" kind of thing, you know? Since she was literally a poor white woman who didn't know of any way she could be "privileged", living in abject poverty etc etc. Lots of people have had their "ah ha" lightbulb moments reading this piece (which I originally read elsewhere, but use the main google result link for ease of reference for others to find and pass on later).

 

[seliph]

quoting something i wrote on reddit:

i don't share your view. I think cultures are meant to be shared by everyone regardless of where they come from, and saying their use is only appropriate by people from the culture creates an stigma. Like ''your people are already a minority, so those things that could be shared by the majority and the minority should only be used by the minority, so who the **** cares if they keep separated forever, because that's their thing and only their thing''. For me, cultural appropriation is bull****, but well, everyone can think what they want.

If cultural appropriation was a thing, every single country in the world would be appropriating stuff from another culture. Hundreds of years have fused so many things together, nothing really is exclusively from one culture, and you can see it in potatoes, tea, silk, sushi, early American furniture, pizza... Nearly nothing is made up in its entirety of a single culture.

Cultures being willingly shared is different than taking a part of someone's culture or religion that has a significance which you are ignorant to, and then wearing that piece as nothing more than a fashion accessory. A white person being invited to an Indian wedding and being welcomed to wear the traditional clothing is much different from the situation I've mentioned before in which there is no respect for the culture you are wearing. Countries trading foods with each other, willingly, is also entirely different.

Also yes history does have a great deal of cultural appropriation lol.

- - - Post Merge - - -

Oh, sorry, I use this article as the main starter for anyone new to "white privilege" or intersectionality in feminism. I've not had any complaints about the site - is this a widespread issue? Or just personal bias/opinion? I have *loads* of good articles I can link, but obviously no need to bother if any source would be equally ignored regardless of credentials. I've just found this particular article to be the best "entry point" kind of thing, you know? Since she was literally a poor white woman who didn't know of any way she could be "privileged", living in abject poverty etc etc. Lots of people have had their "ah ha" lightbulb moments reading this piece (which I originally read elsewhere, but use the main google result link for ease of reference for others to find and pass on later).

I just remember Miii responding to someone with "Let me guess, your information is from Huffington Post" or something which tells me she isn't even gonna consider your post, so. Who knows though.

 

[hydrophonic]

I think you misunderstand. It's okay to share a culture. It's okay to spread that kind of stuff.


But there is a significant difference in wanting to partake in a culture to be well... more cultured, and doing it "because it looks cool." When you take the meaning out of why certain things are a tradition, then it stops becoming a culture and starts becoming a trend.

And what's the problem with cultures becoming a trend? The people for whom the culture is important and has a deeper meaning than just ''a piece of fabric'' (for example) can still have it as something importand and deeper while the people who see it as just an accessory can enjoy it too. It's not like you're making the persons who take it deeper to leave their things so you can use them, is taking what you like and using it the way you like it.

If the problem is that the minorities that have their cultures are opressed (hate the word, thank you, tumblr), refusing to use their culture and just leave it as something exclussive of them won't help, as it won't normalize the situation and those ''opressed'' groups will remain opressed. My mixing cultures, they start being seen normally.

 

[LambdaDelta]

oh no, people are pushing for actual societal progress and basic ****ing human rights, whatever shall we do?

I mean there's definitely bad aspects of it (call out culture being one of the most notably worst), but to be blunt you're kind of a crap and very likely overly privileged and self-entitled person if you just think its straight-up bad

 

[seliph]

And what's the problem with cultures becoming a trend? The people for whom the culture is important and has a deeper meaning than just ''a piece of fabric'' (for example) can still have it as something importand and deeper while the people who see it as just an accessory can enjoy it too. It's not like you're making the persons who take it deeper to leave their things so you can use them, is taking what you like and using it the way you like it.

If the problem is that the minorities that have their cultures are opressed (hate the word, thank you, tumblr), refusing to use their culture and just leave it as something exclussive of them won't help, as it won't normalize the situation and those ''opressed'' groups will remain opressed. My mixing cultures, they start being seen normally.

You're not "enjoying the culture" if you're stripping items of all their meaning just so you and your other white friends can go on about how "hip" you are.
The main thing about cultural appropriation is while you're "enjoying" said things, people who are actually part of these cultures and religions are ridiculed for it, beat up for it, murdered for it. That's why you can't just slap on religious articles to be "trendy" and that's why we can't have nice things.

 

[hydrophonic]

Cultures being willingly shared is different than taking a part of someone's culture or religion that has a significance which you are ignorant to, and then wearing that piece as nothing more than a fashion accessory. A white person being invited to an Indian wedding and being welcomed to wear the traditional clothing is much different from the situation I've mentioned before in which there is no respect for the culture you are wearing. Countries trading foods with each other, willingly, is also entirely different.

Also yes history does have a great deal of cultural appropriation lol.

Trading foods is a thing now. Spain didn't go to South America and said ''hello, fellow indians, i would like to propose you an exchange: i will take your potatoes and we will let you have our olives'', they murdered everyone and take what they wanted lmao (just wanted to point that out -- the food thing you mentioned).

The thing is no one's making any harm by taking things from different cultures. If someone wears a Metallica shirt without having listened to a single song by them in their life, that person isn't harming the ones who are fans of the band, they can still listen to their music and wear the same t-shirt. Not everything has to have the same meaning for everyone. The world is a mixture of cultures, refusing at this point to mix anymore has no sense.

 

[seliph]

Trading foods is a thing now. Spain didn't go to South America and said ''hello, fellow indians, i would like to propose you an exchange: i will take your potatoes and we will let you have our olives'', they murdered everyone and take what they wanted lmao (just wanted to point that out -- the food thing you mentioned).

The thing is no one's making any harm by taking things from different cultures. If someone wears a Metallica shirt without having listened to a single song by them in their life, that person isn't harming the ones who are fans of the band, they can still listen to their music and wear the same t-shirt. Not everything has to have the same meaning for everyone. The world is a mixture of cultures, refusing at this point to mix anymore has no sense.

That murderous example is an example of cultural appropriation but trading food and ingredients and whatnot did happen between places as well.

I explained why it's harmful in my previous post. You aren't respecting the *thing* if you're just wearing it for fashion. Wearing a band shirt isn't in the same vicinity as this because Metallica isn't a culture or religion and metalheads sure as hell aren't an oppressed group that are being killed for liking a certain genre of music.

 

[That Zephyr Guy]

And what's the problem with cultures becoming a trend? The people for whom the culture is important and has a deeper meaning than just ''a piece of fabric'' (for example) can still have it as something importand and deeper while the people who see it as just an accessory can enjoy it too. It's not like you're making the persons who take it deeper to leave their things so you can use them, is taking what you like and using it the way you like it.

If the problem is that the minorities that have their cultures are opressed (hate the word, thank you, tumblr), refusing to use their culture and just leave it as something exclussive of them won't help, as it won't normalize the situation and those ''opressed'' groups will remain opressed. My mixing cultures, they start being seen normally.

Because when a culture becomes a trend it slowly loses it's meaning. Yes, the people from whom it originated can still enjoy it's original meaning, but it becomes stained.

This is a bad example, but it'd be similar to say... if you went through a very dark time in your life and you drew a painting to help represent it. It'd mean a lot to you and would hold a lot of meaning. Now imagine if somebody came by and decided to, without your permisson, print the design onto t-shirts for money.

 

[hydrophonic]

You're not "enjoying the culture" if you're stripping items of all their meaning just so you and your other white friends can go on about how "hip" you are.
The main thing about cultural appropriation is while you're "enjoying" said things, people who are actually part of these cultures and religions are ridiculed for it, beat up for it, murdered for it. That's why you can't just slap on religious articles to be "trendy" and that's why we can't have nice things.

This is like when a mother tells her little kid to ''eat everything on your plate, because kids in Africa are starving'' or when someone tells another ''don't cry about that unimportant thing, other people have it worse than you''. Kids won't stop starving if you eat all the food in your plate and other people won't stop having it bad because you stop crying. Just as ''opressed'' groups won't stop being opressed just because someone out of their culture uses things of their culture. By making those things exclusive to a group, you're making it impossible for it to be normalized.

 

[That Zephyr Guy]

This is like when a mother tells her little kid to ''eat everything on your plate, because kids in Africa are starving'' or when someone tells another ''don't cry about that unimportant thing, other people have it worse than you''. Kids won't stop starving if you eat all the food in your plate and other people won't stop having it bad because you stop crying. Just as ''opressed'' groups won't stop being opressed just because someone out of their culture uses things of their culture. By making those things exclusive to a group, you're making it impossible for it to be normalized.

Okay let me stop you right there by reminding you that it's not exclusive and anybody can partake in it and comments that you're making similar to this make me question whether or not you're actually reading.



I'll say it again - culture can be shared, it's not exclusive. Just respect the culture.

 

[hydrophonic]

That murderous example is an example of cultural appropriation but trading food and ingredients and whatnot did happen between places as well.

I explained why it's harmful in my previous post. You aren't respecting the *thing* if you're just wearing it for fashion. Wearing a band shirt isn't in the same vicinity as this because Metallica isn't a culture or religion and metalheads sure as hell aren't an oppressed group that are being killed for liking a certain genre of music.

The Metallica thing isn't as extreme, but you could count them as an opressed group. After all they're a minority, and there's still a lot of missconceptions about them that aren't true. It's not like being black in America, but wanted to put a simple example on the table.

Why aren't you ''respecting'' the thing? Because it doesn't mean the same thing to a person than to another? Again, you're not making any harm by using cultures that aren't yours. As long as they can practice their culture, everything's right, and by taking parts from it you're not making them leave it.

 

[Buttonsy]

I'm very much for it. People tend to forget that freedom of speech is about making sure you can't go to jail for speaking your mind, not making sure that people can't get angry at what you say. And even in terms of going to jail, there are still exceptions! People can go to jail for saying threats or harassment. Freedom of speech is about making sure you don't get imprisoned just for having your own opinions, but you still need to take responsibility for the fact that there are people out there who won't like what you have to say. And really, the idea that people shouldn't be allowed to voice that they think what someone else said is offensive, isn't that just as infringing on "freedom of speech" as speaking your mind in the first place? So by that logic of social justice being an "attack on freedom of speech", social justice should be allowed to be all over the place because social justice opinions ARE part of the "freedom of speech" (at least, in this context, although honestly, social freedom of speech isn't really a thing, it's entirely a legal thing so idk what people are getting at when they use this argument).
Not only that, but the majority of social justice I have seen have come from people who have been oppressed and are tired of oppressive speech being normalized and accepted, where as the people against it usually tend to live in much more comfortable situations.

Also, white privilege isn't saying that someone necessarily has a privileged life for being white, it's saying that they have the privilege of never having to deal with race-based oppression. I'm poor, disabled, LGBT, misogyny-experiencing, mentally ill, haven't had accessible mainstream education, etc, but because I'm white-passing, I'm still in a better situation than someone who is poor, disabled, LGBT, misogyny-experiencing, mentally ill, hasn't had accessible mainstream education, etc, and is ALSO a person of colour. I never have to worry about being stopped by the police just for the colour of my skin, or having someone else get a job instead of me that I'm equally qualified for just because they are white. That's not to say my life has been easy, but that I won't be a target of race-based discrimination, and so that's a big weight off my chest, and it's also something I have to be aware of, grateful of, and attempt to use wisely. Privilege isn't just a line between "privileged" and "not privileged", it's a spectrum. Someone able-bodied is going to have privilege over physically disabled people. Someone white is going to have privilege over a person of colour. And so in a situation where there is a physically disabled white person and an able-bodied person of colour, it's not that one is necessarily privileged over the other as a whole, but privileged over each other in entirely different ways.

 

[seliph]

This is like when a mother tells her little kid to ''eat everything on your plate, because kids in Africa are starving'' or when someone tells another ''don't cry about that unimportant thing, other people have it worse than you''. Kids won't stop starving if you eat all the food in your plate and other people won't stop having it bad because you stop crying. Just as ''opressed'' groups won't stop being opressed just because someone out of their culture uses things of their culture. By making those things exclusive to a group, you're making it impossible for it to be normalized.

Your comparisons are so baffling oh my god what.
Anyways oppressed groups (which I'm not sure why you're quoting as if they aren't real lmao?) are being discriminated against because of the things white people are appropriating. That's why it's not okay to appropriate those things, and until Whitey McWhiterson respects and appreciates these things for what they are, it's something that can only be stolen and appropriated rather than shared.

The idea that things can only be "normalized" if white people are allowed to blatantly disrespect them is really... gross. You can appreciate things without having to wear them as accessories and taking them for yourself.

- - - Post Merge - - -

The Metallica thing isn't as extreme, but you could count them as an opressed group. After all they're a minority, and there's still a lot of missconceptions about them that aren't true. It's not like being black in America, but wanted to put a simple example on the table.

Why aren't you ''respecting'' the thing? Because it doesn't mean the same thing to a person than to another? Again, you're not making any harm by using cultures that aren't yours. As long as they can practice their culture, everything's right, and by taking parts from it you're not making them leave it.

"Minority" and "oppressed" aren't the same thing oh my god. Also Metallica has nearly 40 million fans on Facebook alone they are in no way some "minority" lmao you really have no clue what you're talking about

Imagine someone has five, I don't know, blankets that their family members gave to them so they hold a lot of meaning. You take one and you use it to wipe your ass and clean your house and now it's disgusting. I dunno about you but I'd be pretty pissed if you did that to my blanket even if I willingly gave it to you. That's what you're doing when you wear cultures and religions as fashion accessories.

 

[hydrophonic]

Because when a culture becomes a trend it slowly loses it's meaning. Yes, the people from whom it originated can still enjoy it's original meaning, but it becomes stained.

This is a bad example, but it'd be similar to say... if you went through a very dark time in your life and you drew a painting to help represent it. It'd mean a lot to you and would hold a lot of meaning. Now imagine if somebody came by and decided to, without your permisson, print the design onto t-shirts for money.

But it loses its meaning for the people who take it, because for the ones who take it seriously and understand it as a deeper thing it won't have lost its meaning, it will be the exact same thing, as people taking it and using it won't change the way they look at it.

That's not exactly the same, private property belongs to one and one person only, while cultures belong to everyone. But i'll give you an example: i'm Spanish, and longway back, my ancestors were also Spanish, therefore, Spanish culture is supposed to be ''mine'', but i don't care if someone takes a Sevillana dress and use it as they please, or if someone started to wear a headdress like the one of la Dama de Elche.

 

[seliph]

But it loses its meaning for the people who take it, because for the ones who take it seriously and understand it as a deeper thing it won't have lost its meaning, it will be the exact same thing, as people taking it and using it won't change the way they look at it.

It doesn't lose its meaning but it now has a bitter taste because you're reminded of how people are taking something with meaning and with significance and using it all willy-nilly for whatever meanwhile your group that actually respects said thing gets beat up while just trying to take a walk.

 

[That Zephyr Guy]

But it loses its meaning for the people who take it, because for the ones who take it seriously and understand it as a deeper thing it won't have lost its meaning, it will be the exact same thing, as people taking it and using it won't change the way they look at it.

That's not exactly the same, private property belongs to one and one person only, while cultures belong to everyone. But i'll give you an example: i'm Spanish, and longway back, my ancestors were also Spanish, therefore, Spanish culture is supposed to be ''mine'', but i don't care if someone takes a Sevillana dress and use it as they please, or if someone started to wear a headdress like the one of la Dama de Elche.

And I'm Polish, and my family is connected to the holocaust, but that doesn't automatically mean I take offense to Jewish jokes or Nazi jokes or etc, so yes, I see the point you're trying to make.


But you're not trying to see the point we're trying to make.


I think the painting analogy kind of highlights where you missed the point. It doesn't matter if it belongs to one person or multiple people - if someone besmirches the significance of something you hold dear, you're going to feel slighted by it.

 

[Tao]

I don't see a problem with 'social justice' in principle. It's basically just a word to describe the act of "not being a ****ing douche to other people". What's wrong with that?

But I do think there's enough people taking it to extremes in a lot of situations these days. It's probably only a vocal minority of people that are being offended for the sake of being offended (since it's usually only a vocal minority), but they've proven that they can get some truly baffling stuff taken down/banned/etc because it somehow caused offense.

It's also not hard to imagine it making people feel 'uncomfortable' (probably lots of better words to use than that). You've gotta be pretty careful what you say and do these days because even if what you've done/said really isn't a big deal, it only takes one person to find something offensive about it, gather a group of ***** on internet and call you a sexist to cause a lot of realistically unjustified hassle.
I wouldn't consider myself racist/homophobic/etc, but I still find myself feeling like I'm walking on eggshells at times, double checking things I've wrote to make sure there's nothing somebody can twist or take out of context for the sake of causing a scene.


So yea, I don't think there's anything wrong with it as a thing at all, but the people that seemingly go out of their way just to be offended at nothing are the ones I think need to chill the f--- out.

***** is also a female dog but is censored (it's censored since it's actually used in an offensive way now, and if cracker were used in the same way as b**** it would be censored too), the original/other meaning of a word is irrelevant. Cracker isn't censored because it isn't anywhere near as bad as the n word, and isn't seriously offensive/discriminatory at all.

I don't think just looking at what is censored is the best way of deciding how offensive something is.

Ass is censored but arse isn't, but they essentially mean the exact same thing in the context of anatomy/an insult (though ass can also be a donkey). It's mostly just a regional difference.

Douche isn't censored yet a majority of the time somebody uses it is for the purpose of an insult (there's not exactly many threads called "do you douche"...Somebody get on that)

Heck, at Ultimate-Guitar the word 'kitchen' was censored for some bizarre reason (or at least was when I used to go there). 'Kitchen' isn't exactly the N word.

Plus there's the amount of people actually using it in an 'offensive' way. It's rare I see somebody calling somebody a cracker. It's probably the same reason crap and arse fly under the radar of most censors.

 

[vel]

i believe white privilege is real. there are so many examples of white privilege it's crazy.

decided i could explain to contribute : have you heard of the rape case with the college boy who goes to stanford? he completely raped a girl but because he was white and rich, his father easily gave him only 4 months in jail. a black man could easily be convicted even if he didn't do it for 10 years. in fact, one man just got out of jail after his wife said she lied about the rape to get money. i would go on but i think it's easy to see where i'm going with this.

 

[hydrophonic]

Your comparisons are so baffling oh my god what.
Anyways oppressed groups (which I'm not sure why you're quoting as if they aren't real lmao?) are being discriminated against because of the things white people are appropriating. That's why it's not okay to appropriate those things, and until Whitey McWhiterson respects and appreciates these things for what they are, it's something that can only be stolen and appropriated rather than shared.

The idea that things can only be "normalized" if white people are allowed to blatantly disrespect them is really... gross. You can appreciate things without having to wear them as accessories and taking them for yourself.

- - - Post Merge - - -



"Minority" and "oppressed" aren't the same thing oh my god. Also Metallica has nearly 40 million fans on Facebook alone they are in no way some "minority" lmao you really have no clue what you're talking about

Imagine someone has five, I don't know, blankets that their family members gave to them so they hold a lot of meaning. You take one and you use it to wipe your ass and clean your house and now it's disgusting. I dunno about you but I'd be pretty pissed if you did that to my blanket even if I willingly gave it to you. That's what you're doing when you wear cultures and religions as fashion accessories.

Ummm, i'm pretty sure that's not how discrimination works. Opressed groups are discriminated (besides the historic past) because they isolate themselves. Ghettos (not only of black people) cause minorities to ostracize, and therefore create a bigger gap between the minority and the majority. If those groups open up and mix with the majority, the discrimination is still given because they once were ostracized (because they felt obliged to), but it slowly decreases because both cultures exchange things.

I still find the disrespect thing (regarding cultures) ridiculous. Both can enjoy it, no ones being harmed, one takes it one way, the other group takes it another way.

----

It was an example. Do you really thing there are as much Metallica fans as fans of top 40 music? That's what i'm referring, even though it's a silly example. Minority and opressed aren't interchangeable terms, but most of the times, the minorities are opressed. I would use the word opressed every time i wrote minority, but if i'm already hard to understand due to my ****ty English, with a single word expressed eight times in two sentences i think you wouldn't even be able to read this ****.

And again: private isn't the same as collective. Cultures are collective, a blanket is private. I explained that in my previous post.

 

[Red Cat]

I am all for treating everyone with respect regardless of race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion and not discriminating against people, but I have become turned off by some of the social justice movements and some of the language and tactics they use. I cringe whenever the word "privilege" is used because it does more to divide than to unite. I get that people who are white, male, straight, Christian are less likely to be discriminated against, but what does acknowledging some sort of privilege do to help solve those problems? I just want to do my thing and treat everyone equally, but I kind of feel like I am being picked on for my gender, race, sexuality, etc. if people say I have a certain type of privilege. I know that is not as bad as the forms of discrimination women and minorities face, but not as bad doesn't mean it's right. What I'm saying is that I want to do what I can do to help, but trying to make me feel guilty just pisses me off since I don't have any more control over systems which oppress women and minorities than they do.