The Official Feedback Thread

[a potato]

Another thing I was disappointed to see a few times in this thread is users doubling down on offensive takes instead of saying "oh I see why such and such would make someone feel unsafe/unwelcome on the site, sorry about that."

I have to say this is especially concerning given staff’s remarks on education before consequences, and especially because good-faith attempts to educate others have led to the recent spirals, slow mode, and attacks on users for speaking up made by those who are holier-than-thou and only perpetuating them.

Edit: I wasn’t going to say this at first, but after seeing what posted as I typed this, it’s concerning that staff is (finally) being so active while the board is in slow mode.

 

[daringred_]

I recommend using their forum's search functionality to check out some of the content posted there within the last year or two.

active when they can't reply to you for four hours is amazing. anyway, not the winning argument you think it is to point fingers and be like, "b-but look at them!" this isn't smogon. this is a completely separate forum with a plethora of users who have expressed their view on this matter that you choose to keep ignoring if not take seriously. imagine if we applied this logic to anything else raised in this thread. "well on THAT forum, they're allowed to say homophobic slurs, so thinly veiled homophobic rhetoric on this forum is still better." do you know how asinine that sounds?

 

[That Marshal Fangirl]

I recommend using their forum's search functionality to check out some of the content posted there within the last year or two.

Gotta say this is a really passive aggressive write off of a much larger post that included several good points. It’s not a good look for the site owner to address serious concerns with the typing patterns of an indifferent teenager.

 

[mogyay]

I recommend using their forum's search functionality to check out some of the content posted there within the last year or two.

it's so disheartening that you have replied to someone with genuine points and concerns in such an uninterested way, it was your point in the first place

it's literally crazy to me you can ban someone for a year for essentially caring too much about something when you don't seem to care at all, it's genuinely really sad honestly

edit: love u ben

 

[Lancelot]

Gotta say this is a really passive aggressive write off of a much larger post that included several good points. It’s not a good look for the site owner to address serious concerns with the typing patterns of an indifferent teenager.

Also, not to sound like a broken record, but Seliph got banned for “repeated” instances of being rude/dismissive/inflammatory. This is the second this ive seen (for all I know there could be more) that’s Jeremy has been someone rude or passive aggressive towards a user. After the discussion about staff needing to be held to a higher standard it once again feels like one rule for us and one rule for the staff.

Will Jeremy face the any consequences for being rude to someone with genuine concerns or is that just a special consequence for people he doesn’t like.

Is it that the staff isn’t sure what we are trying to get out of this, or is it that they’re just not listening.

Edit: oops mog beat me to it

Edit: Also, my point/“feedback” is it still seems that despite several people bringing it up with better examples than this, it still seems SOME staff aren’t holding themselves to the same standard they would others. Funnily enough I feel like Jeremy’s post might have seemed less blunt if he also had to adhere to the 4hour cooldown.

 

[Jeremy]

active when they can't reply to you for four hours is amazing. anyway, not the winning argument you think it is to point fingers and be like, "b-but look at them!" this isn't smogon. this is a completely separate forum with a plethora of users who have expressed their view on this matter that you choose to keep ignoring if not take seriously. imagine if we applied this logic to anything else raised in this thread. "well on THAT forum, they're allowed to say homophobic slurs, so thinly veiled homophobic rhetoric on this forum is still better." do you know how asinine that sounds?

Please don't take what I said out of context. The point (among five others) was that this forum is not a special case. As you said, this is a separate forum where we set our own rules, often based on community feedback, which is why I stated, "we're completely open to changing the rule, and this can easily be communicated in this thread without making accusations." I have plainly stated here that we are not ignoring feedback and taking it seriously. Furthermore, it's important to hear how members would specifically like to see that work here, especially considering that some have made these types of references themselves.

 

[LambdaDelta]

gonna touch upon a few things real quick, that I'm sure have also been alluded to, but still


1) putting chris on project staff shows a complete lack of (and from the looks of things, unwillingness towards) understanding as to WHY people want him deplatformed, and for what purpose? because it'd feel mean to reprimand him? because he does a lot of the work in helping to manage site events? idk, sucks, but that's life? like did we just never plan to have a backup plan if he was caught in an emergency or worse? if site events need to scale down for a time, then so be it (which with the mass exodus of users disgusted by how staff have handled things, shouldn't be hard to manage)

2) expecting people in positions of power to handle issues privately in a reasonable manner is downright laughable. doubly so, when even handling it PUBLICLY has been as hot air nothingness as ever

I recommend using their forum's search functionality to check out some of the content posted there within the last year or two.

THAT IS NOT AN EXCUSE. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING OF VALUE TO SAY, THEN CEASE

 

[Sharksheep]

For the sake of transparency and accountability and following protocol as suggested by a previous staff update I have reported a post for being rude and aggressive and being argumentive for the sake of being argumentive.

When should I expect a response?

 

[tiffanistarr]

-snip-

I’m going to take the bait with this and do the so called nit picking because your response needs to be challenged. Again, this isn’t going to be cutesy and rainbows, I’m going to be very honest and blunt.


As for your first statement that staff don’t see everything black and white like “the rest of us” and they acknowledge people can change. You’re right people can change, we love a growth moment. However, we aren’t talking about small life changes and view changes people are making. We are talking about major views some of yall have had and currently have that are potentially incredibly problematic and harmful to minorities. You fail to understand that people are bringing up problems from the past because NOTHING was done to rectify these issues back then and now. Victims of said harmful ideologies and opinions have the right to speak up and vouch for their own safety and justice. When nothing happens and victims go ignored it’s the responsibility of ally’s to come in and reiterate and prop up those voices. That is true community and that is what should enact change. Victims don’t have to accept or entertain super duper late apologies. That’s just how it is. Also I’d like to reiterate some of these things people are upset about aren’t small issues that an apology and blind trust can make go away.

The problem with many of you are that you are very nitpicky over situations (like you demand an apology from a specific staff member and sounded ungrateful since the apology was late, tell people to stay with the current flow of complaints when they talk about something else, immediately point out contradictions to staff responses etc.), use grudges or someone else’s past to count against them today

Nitpicking indicates that we are focusing on small, minor, or unimportant details. I’d argue that the “many of you” you are referring to are AGAIN, talking about major problematic situations, ideologies, and opinions. I will say, the apologies have been tricky. While yes it is nice to get the apology it’s not nice to see it littered with excuses or see it after you’re called out directly. That makes it feel hollow and forced which at that point is it really a sincere apology? It’s honestly hard to tell. An apology could easily just be “I posted this, it is wrong, i have no excuse for it I am going to learn and do better.” Instead we’re seeing “i know it’s wrong but it’s because this reason and that reason, i know it’s wrong, im sorry but this and this and that clouded my judgement.” That seems very insincere and insulting to people that may have been harmed.

I want to touch on immediately pointing out contradictions because I’m not sure why you’re labeling that as a negative. This is feedback thread, why would you not point out contradictory statements and behaviors. That’s how you hold people accountable, you understand that right? It’s not being done in malice it’s pointing out continued errors by members or sometimes staff. It amazes me and greatly concerns me that you think pointing out contradictions is bad. It’s an overall good thing.

To briefly touch on using somebody’s past against them today. To be so honest with you, through the years you have made multiple disturbing and problematic statements. You can say anything you want to convince me or anyone else that you have changed, but some of things you have said have been so disrespectful that I’m not sure I could ever view you differently. I understand that is harsh but honestly it’s not meant as an attack it’s just how people might feel. In the name of being honest I think it’s rich in irony for anyone who has been very problematic in their past to claim victim when people don’t want to associate with them. If you are more worried about how you are perceived then how you made people feel then honestly I can’t vibe with you, ever. Especially when it comes to ideology and the existence of at risk people. Again, I’m not trying to be mean but it’s the truth and sometimes the truth is painful and my kid gloves are on.

hound on others for opposing viewpoints

Again, we aren’t talking about minor viewpoints. Most of the things in this thread have been major viewpoints on people’s identity, sexual preferences, etc. I don’t think challenging those people on their views or standing up for themselves is “hounding on.” If people aren’t expressing themselves and opposing potential problematic views then we’re going back as a society. People have the right to challenge views and from what I’ve seen it’s been done in proper ways. I haven’t seen any name calling, trolling, or anything like that. If you can’t be open to challenging viewpoints then you aren’t seeing the nuance and grey area either. It has to go both ways.

If this is how you behave in public, you’re going to give others a bad impression of who you are.

I don’t really have a lot to add to this outside of for me personally and maybe others we are so unapologetically authentic and true to ourselves that this is just not something I could care to bothered by.

One particular example was that some of you said that you don’t owe others your forgiveness if they said something harmful in the past

Again, we don’t. It’s really that simple. We understand it works both ways and I’d venture to say we’re okay with not having those relationships in the future. We’re good.

They might do the same to you next year, five years later, or ten years later. Whatever goes around comes around.

I personally welcome this same energy back to me. I won’t speak for everyone but if I’m putting that energy out there then I fully expect people to give it back as they should. When it comes to racism, lgbtq rights, palestine, blm or whatever hot button topic it is, I am proud to share my thoughts and be on what I know to be the right side of history. I’ve said and done things I regret in the past, we all have. However I have tangible proof I have done the work and put the effort in to learn. If people can’t say the same that’s on them.

Again, this is not meant as malicious, bullying, or anything. It’s a very honest take and it is blunt, but I’m going to die on the hill that being blunt doesn’t make you a mean person. I’m not saying this to be mean, but I felt moved to challenge these stances.

 

[Coach]

I don't think it's really fair to say people are being nitpicky. In fact, as acknowledged by 'Action Item 2', there are some posts that even staff admit have caused harm and borderline/actually broken rules that have gone unremoved.

Nobody is saying that moderators should be hunched at their desktops monitoring every single entry onto the site, of course not. But when there are historical concerns being raised about certain users by multiple others, it would be reassuring to have said concerns addressed in a timely manner. If a picture has been painted over years of such posts, then I'm afraid it isn't nitpicking but rather the impression that they have made of their character regardless of when it might have been posted.

Where it gets particularly frustrating is at this point, where a particular user has received a harsh and lengthy ban for reasons involving their tone. Plus others have also been banned for varying amounts of time for similar 'unruly' behaviour. Meanwhile, you have other users who have been jumping and jiving along a very fine line for YEARS with questionable posts that are indirectly or outright discriminatory and hateful without a single warning. It inevitably leads you to question where the priorities of the moderation team lie.

 

[-Apples-]

To briefly touch on using somebody’s past against them today. To be so honest with you, through the years you have made multiple disturbing and problematic statements. You can say anything you want to convince me or anyone else that you have changed, but some of things you have said have been so disrespectful that I’m not sure I could ever view you differently. I understand that is harsh but honestly it’s not meant as an attack it’s just how people might feel. In the name of being honest I think it’s rich in irony for anyone who has been very problematic in their past to claim victim when people don’t want to associate with them. If you are more worried about how you are perceived then how you made people feel then honestly I can’t vibe with you, ever. Especially when it comes to ideology and the existence of at risk people. Again, I’m not trying to be mean but it’s the truth and sometimes the truth is painful and my kid gloves are on.

I understand that you weren’t trying to be harsh. But I made that whole argument because of how a few others felt by all these condescending posts. I may not be discouraged from going here if I’m the one receiving these posts, but a few other members already felt discouraged when they faced the same thing.

And yes, I do acknowledge that I made several problematic posts in the past (especially the political posts). In fact, I was just working with the staff to get several of the more problematic posts I made removed. This is not to hide the evidence that I was an awful person in the past, but rather to clean the forums from these harmful posts so future generations of members would feel more comfortable. I try to seek improvement so I don’t repeat the same mistakes I made. My main flaw is that I still care too much about what others think of me, and that shows how vain I am. But I have every right and reason to care, because in a general setting, if too many people are bothered by one user, then that user should reconsider their membership.

 

[sakuraa]

• This forum is not unique in the way it addresses this topic. It has the same or stricter rules than our fellow Nintendo forums, most of which are dedicated to Pokémon. If you're unsure about this, I would recommend looking at the Pokémon forum called Smogon, which is the most active Nintendo-based forum on the internet. This is just one example, but you'll find that their rules are far less strict than TBT's.

i haven’t been on Smogon too much (went like once or twice to check out Showdown events) but they’re def better than y’all when it comes to rules and management, that’s for sure

also bringing up Pokémon forums and NOT mentioning Bulbagarden is WILD ngl especially since compared to the mods there, a good chunk of y’all do jack sh!t to make this place safe </3

i’m gonna do the detailed post i mentioned before a little later, just know it’s coming

 

[Flyffel]

Please don't take what I said out of context. The point (among five others) was that this forum is not a special case. As you said, this is a separate forum where we set our own rules, often based on community feedback, which is why I stated, "we're completely open to changing the rule, and this can easily be communicated in this thread without making accusations." I have plainly stated here that we are not ignoring feedback and taking it seriously. Furthermore, it's important to hear how members would specifically like to see that work here, especially considering that some have made these types of references themselves.

Here's an actionable suggestion that could actually further this whole thing:

Jeremy, how about you make a suggestion here about how the overhauled rules could look? Keeping in mind the things that members have discussed and suggested.

Or would you like the members to make a suggestion instead?

 

[Mairmalade]

i don’t know why i’m bothering to post again when obviously no one is listening. i don’t know if i’ve ever been part of a discussion where the opposing side just completely and utterly disregards or ignores every single thing being said to this degree. i am dumbfounded by it. but anyway, here it goes.


mairmalade - i don’t know you well. i don’t think we’ve ever interacted one-on-one, but i’ve always heard great things about you and you’ve always seemed kind and down to earth. i have no ill will towards you, and i do want to believe that you (and destani) are trying to do the right thing. but i am….so frustrated by this post.

i understand not wanting to allow public bashing of staff members for silly reasons. that’s totally fine and justifiable. but there is also public criticism that is both necessary and valid, and that is exactly what’s happened in this thread. the staff members who have directly been called out and publicly criticized are jeremy, chris and oblivia. jeremy is being criticized for directly attacking and insulting seliph in a feedback thread where he was providing feedback that many people agreed with. chris is being criticized for being repeatedly inappropriate, whether it’s rudeness or sexual content, and then not acknowledging it until he has no other choice. oblivia is being criticized for the van incident of 2020. all three of these things deserve public criticism, as all three crossed a major line and there have been attempts to cover up/hide all three instances. jeremy couldn’t even have a reasonable back and forth discussion with seliph regarding the valentine’s day event - how is it fair to then imply that the correct solution would’ve been for us to privately contact jeremy and criticize his decisions that way? why would any of us make the assumption that he’d be willing to listen to any of us when he can’t have a civil conversation with seliph either publicly or privately? and chris, who has routinely run away from anyone who has a problem with the things he says, and lets other staff members apologize on his behalf? how on earth could it be feasible to think that he’d respond to a private message? i know this is a long thread with a lot of long posts, but i know for a fact everyone here has seen at least one person mention that CTS threads often go unanswered. how would a private message to a staff member be any different at all? i know you clarified that you’re speaking primarily from your own perspective of how you’d like things to be handled, but you’re also not the one who did all this stuff. i do believe you would be willing to engage in a discussion about something if you made a mistake, but both jeremy and chris have proven time and time again that they are not willing to do that whatsoever. not sure about oblivia tbh, but judging by the length of time between the van stuff and her apology, it seems about the same to me. again, i know you clarified that you’re speaking for yourself here, but i’m struggling to understand why that’s relevant when the actual staff members responsible have not handled anything professionally or respectfully, and if anything their actions have guaranteed most members will not ever want to engage with them privately. while you are disappointed in how quickly we’ve “picked things apart”, i am disappointed with the repeated instances of intentionally missing the point. it feels to me like your phrasing of “public backlash with valid criticism sprinkled in” implies that the backlash is unjustified while only “valid criticism” - aka only posts that are phrased as carefully and politely as possible - deserves to be heard. this is just my interpretation, but i’m having a hard time interpreting it another way. yet again it feels as if all the context and history of this ongoing conversation that began in february is being ignored.


the only reason this thread has become a “mass” is because of staff inaction. every time someone makes a thoughtful post asking questions and trying to explain the changes they’d like to see, they are met with silence. on occasion, a post that’s deemed “polite enough” gets a vague response, but as a general whole most people’s posts here have gone unanswered. every time we get close to seeing a change, we get a nothing-response that basically just says “we’ll do better next time” and that’s about it. for christ’s sake, even the discussion of sexual content being banned didn’t even get a definitive answer, despite it being an unbearably easy issue to fix. instead, jeremy chose to say (paraphrasing) “well most people here are adults so oh well” instead of “well most of the adults here want to protect the minors, so maybe that’s more important." every time an important issue is brought up, it’s either ignored, given a non-answer, or outright denied. aerith literally had to beg for a staff response the other day because the thread had derailed so badly, a discussion about legitimate concerns about staff behavior turned into the most ridiculous argument i’ve ever seen on here, and yet staff themselves were nowhere to be found until someone had to directly ask them to step in.


i’m sorry, i truly am, but i do not see any reason for this addition other than an attempt to yet again fixate on tone-policing instead of what is being said. trust me - i hear you. we are all beyond frustrated and we are all struggling to keep ourselves from losing our cool and being unprofessional. hell, i’ve straight up failed at doing both of those, and i’m sorry for that. i understand seeing and hearing all the things being said about staff must suck for you and your fellow staff members, but there is a reason for it. the anger and hostility that has come out in the past few weeks is a direct result of years upon years of problems with staff behavior and the way things are handled here, and the fact that we’ve never been allowed to talk about it until now. i can only speak for myself, but a lot of my anger specifically has come from repeated attempts to silence the conversation. my rude post in here right after seliph’s ban was a direct response to mick’s statement that discussion about seliph’s ban would be deleted (and yes, i know he’s clarified that it was not a guarantee of removing posts, but regardless, the threat was there). what else are we supposed to do at this point? no one is listening to us. every time we even get close to progress, either a staff member or a dismissive friend of staff comes in and accuses us all of some nonsense instead of actually absorbing what’s been said. what is it that you expect from us? (i’m using a general “you” here, for the record, to all staff.) even though some posts have likely crossed a line to you, staff behavior has crossed lines time and time again with absolutely zero action, and that was long before this thread existed. i am still trying to avoid speaking for anyone but me, but i can say with confidence that many of us involved in this are absolutely exhausted of trying and failing to be heard, and constantly being lectured about our tone instead of any acknowledgement of the serious problems that have actually happened here.

i want to again reiterate that this is not meant to be an attack on you. but seeing one staff post every like three weeks, only for that staff post to yet again dismiss a lot of what’s actually happened here, is beyond frustrating and really solidifies my fear that absolutely nothing is going to change here.

Hi, @Crash

I appreciate you being level with me here.

For what you’ve outlined (e.g., the van incident, public exchange in this thread), I agree that a level of public criticism can be appropriate. I'm not applying this to anything specifically, but I think it’s more when it veers into the territory of multiple accusatory statements and/or when repeated claims are made against someone’s overall character that are not entirely truthful, alongside the criticism, where some of the reasoning behind that rule comes in.

it feels to me like your phrasing of “public backlash with valid criticism sprinkled in” implies that the backlash is unjustified while only “valid criticism” - aka only posts that are phrased as carefully and politely as possible - deserves to be heard.

I wanted to quote this part to say it's difficult to hear and understand criticism fully when other layers of backlash and multiple conversations are occurring simultaneously. I don't believe only "carefully worded" posts deserve to be heard. My post wasn't carefully worded either.

I hear you (and others) that a lack of response, especially when you try to take the time to voice your concerns, is frustrating and exhausting. Not that this excuses it, but for a lot of situations, we discuss internally how to best approach them, and we often bring up different viewpoints. We don't always conclude on a "best" way, but that doesn’t justify any sense of inaction if/when it occurs. Still, I'm not sure what the exact path forward is right now, and how we get there.

I’m hopeful that working on improving the rules/clearly defining actions will help in approaching situations quickly and more consistently. One staff member suggested a spotlight visualizer (red, yellow, green) as an indicator of the severe measure for different rule elements, which I love. I also believe additional moderation staff would be helpful.

Regarding sexual content, there's certainly a line. For example, PG-13 content can sometimes contain innuendos, but some may perceive these as entirely inappropriate. I recall a thread with a perceived innuendo surrounding an ACNH layout mechanic that many participated in (though some excessive posts were removed). That said, posts with sexual context can be inappropriate. I do agree that a level of safeguarding must be continually present.

Anyway, the need for some changes has been/is apparent.

 

[sleepey]

i understand seeing and hearing all the things being said about staff must suck for you and your fellow staff members, but there is a reason for it. the anger and hostility that has come out in the past few weeks is a direct result of years upon years of problems with staff behavior and the way things are handled here, and the fact that we’ve never been allowed to talk about it until now. i can only speak for myself, but a lot of my anger specifically has come from repeated attempts to silence the conversation. my rude post in here right after seliph’s ban was a direct response to mick’s statement that discussion about seliph’s ban would be deleted (and yes, i know he’s clarified that it was not a guarantee of removing posts, but regardless, the threat was there). what else are we supposed to do at this point? no one is listening to us. every time we even get close to progress, either a staff member or a dismissive friend of staff comes in and accuses us all of some nonsense instead of actually absorbing what’s been said. what is it that you expect from us? (i’m using a general “you” here, for the record, to all staff.) even though some posts have likely crossed a line to you, staff behavior has crossed lines time and time again with absolutely zero action, and that was long before this thread existed. i am still trying to avoid speaking for anyone but me, but i can say with confidence that many of us involved in this are absolutely exhausted of trying and failing to be heard, and constantly being lectured about our tone instead of any acknowledgement of the serious problems that have actually happened here.

Not a response to you, Crash—just pasting two things I’ve seen today that have made me think of the following:

I think a problem with this entire forum conflict is that we’re still even discussing tone or what is or isn’t rude in the first place.

Emotions are meant to come up when tensions are high. There is no way out of pent up anger than to see it through, and everyone’s unique expressions of it serve a purpose.

In these situations, it’s always the first ones to reveal their true feelings that are scapegoated.

Animal Crossing forum or in-real life—there is no world where authority figures drawing arbitrary lines about who is or isn’t “rude” or “inflammatory” makes any chance of true conflict resolution remotely possible.

I am not neutral. I am as rude as I am polite. I am as angry as I am graceful.

 

[lasagne_of_death]

Okay... So I have plenty to say, and I probably won't have it worded perfectly or anything, most likely there'll be mistakes, or things that would've been better worded another way, but honestly reading through this thread has genuinely numbed my mind and I've definitely lost a fair amount of brain cells due to the frankly insane things that have been said/defended. I'll try to keep my points in certain sections. Also sorry if my tone comes across as condescending, I have trouble with that (some friends irl have pointed out I sound a bit off in that respect when I text)

SEXUAL TOPICS

Enough said on this by other members, and I'm throwing in my thoughts. There is absolutely no need whatsoever for sex to be discussed on TBT, regardless of how "respectful and mature" you are about your wording of it. There are children here, minors here (I am one of them), and there is absolutely no reason that any adult should be talking to me about sex aside from my parents, sex-ed and biology teacher, and... yeah, that's about it. I don't even talk to my brother (who I am extremely close with and is in his 20s) about sexual topics, not even jokingly. It's weird, there's no need for us to talk about it with each other, and it's pretty inappropriate. Obviously there's exceptions to this with other minors', who perhaps don't have a relatively stable and typical support system like I am lucky to have and therefore there would be other adults speaking to them about sexual topics, but in no capacity would it be strangers or any random adult, especially on the internet. If I am the only minor in a room of 30yos (for example, a family gathering), would you really think it appropriate for them to talk about their sex lives, however politely, just because the "majority of people there are old enough"? Genuinely asking, because you've said several times to not take things you (Jeremy specifically in this question I'm asking right now) out of context, but I don't think you've given an actual answer to this question others have posed. Maybe I missed it or something, do correct me if I'm wrong! And if I'm not, then an answer would be nice.

CANDY VAN JOKE

Honestly... Idek what to say on this one. Who on earth thought it was a good idea to make a joke about paedophilia and/or child kidnapping? Just because it's a "common joke" doesn't mean it's acceptable. I've seen a plethora of paedophilic comments in YouTube comments for example, on regular videos involving kids. Sure you can say "but everyone knows that the comment about 'training them in young'/'come have a look in my shed' is a joke, it's not like we're seriously supporting it!" but let's be so fr. There's a line you need to draw with jokes, because a lot of the time the more something like that (ie harmful topic) is joked about, the more normalised and accepted it becomes, even unintentionally and indirectly. I don't know if this even makes sense to you, what I'm getting at. But I have seen far too many kids my age falling into self-harm because of all the jokes made about it. It's tragic to see, and then it becomes a vicious cycle of them starting to make jokes to cope with their newfound "habit". I'm not equating paedophilia to self-harm, but the sentiment of the "joke" culture surrounding them is the same. Idk—feel free to disagree, but this is based on my experience of these various topics

POST HISTORY & STAFF

Another run to the ground topic that I'm going to touch on. This is going to be pretty short since I don't have full context (though I can glean and understand pretty well from others' posts) for problematic post history, but I think that this situation with Chris's old posts resurfacing is very much justified. If it was dealt with correctly and at the time it happened, I wouldn't even know about their lowkey predatory sounding posts! I myself have no problem with Chris, in fact I've only had one direct interaction with him iirc? and they answered my problem promptly and well, but at the same time I was here for the whole valentine's day fiasco, but that's passed, and I'm pretty sure it was resolved, however strangely and slowly, and I'm not going to dig the topic up further. So honestly, seeing the posts he made in the past were a shock, which I suppose is good as it shows he's changed! Anyway, I think I went a bit off track. If you, staff, had dealt with Chris's problematic posts promptly, then this wouldn't currently be a problem. Since there was nothing done at the time, I think it's justified that people are bringing up these behaviours—you can't just let that happen and hope that everyone forgets. That's just not how apologies and dealing with situations work. Unless, of course, your aim was to drive people away from the forums, which in that case you did a great job, but since this isn't the intended outcome, I think it's right for members to be outraged and want to leave.

Also, as so many have pointed out, staff responses have been extremely slow, and due to this the thread has spiraled and devolved multiple times! I do very much appreciate LadyDestani, though, for her attempts to respond whenever she could. I admire her for that, but the responsibility to monitor and reply to the concerns raised here should not fall solely on her, though the recent responses from other members of staff leave me thinking that perhaps she has the best way with words and is most likely to work for change/actually listen to feedback. Maybe I'm wrong, but so far I unfortunately have not seen staff overcome this observation and viewpoint I have formed. Also, the "do not criticise staff" rule being brought up in this thread when people are simply trying to do what this thread is for, giving feedback, is crazy. I'd understand if people just outright **** on mods and staff but gave no actual constructive criticism I'd understand, but mate. Staff has done wrong multiple times, people are just trying to point out that. The inaction taken by staff has led members to the point where they have to constantly call out the behaviours (which again, these posts are so many in number due to inaction), and it yields no fruits.

My feedback: deal with predatory/LGBTQphobic/racist/etc posts immediately. If post history can contribute to a ban (re seliph's year long ban), then keep it consistent, use it for everyone. If post history can be absolved (re Chris being able to apologise and explain away comments when backlash rises) then use this "clean slate after a certain amount of time" method.

Staff should be held to higher accountability, as staff have said they "are"/should. There won't be such a huge and sudden blow-up of, imo, justified outrage if you take care of situations promptly and professionally. For the second part of my criticism, I'd like to suggest having responses posted regularly, and not going into radio silence for as long as they did. Respond to questions, concerns, as is the purpose of this thread. I truly am empathic towards the staff, this large amount of long replies and comments from so many is a lot to deal with, and is mentally and physically draining, but there does need to be something done. Perhaps more behind the scenes talks so that all staff are in agreement and not contracting each other, as replies from staff so far have been wildly different in tone and content (eg Jeremy's, Destani's, Mairmalade's are all very different to my interpretation)

2ND CHANCES & "REFORM"

This is an old?ish topic, but I'd still like to talk about it. Staff have repeatedly said that they are willing to give 2nd chances, and give much room for problematic members to grow. I actually love this! I think people can genuinely change over time, but there is a problem with this. One of the reasons that has been said as to why members would have a more lenient punishment/leeway for reform is if they're neurodiverse. I understand this in some cases I guess?? (not really, while being neurotypical myself, I have many neurodiverse friends and associates) but the thing is: they are still people. They can still be aware that what they're doing is wrong. One of my very dear friends irl was creeped on multiple times by an autistic 19yo in her ballet class. Frt, my friend was 12~ when this started, 15 now. She literally wouldn't say anything because "he doesn't realise it's bad", and when I explained to her that it does not excuse his actions, she agreed. The reason she felt like he was innocent of all guilt in the first place? Others, ADULTS, told her that he "doesn't understand it's wrong", "doesn't mean it in a bad way", and even, I've heard, "he won't get the chance with anyone else"!! What the hell?! This is an ableist viewpoint to have, to exempt someone from culpability simply due to their neurodiversity.

My feedback: second chances are great! But don't excuse horrible words and actions simply due to neurodiversity.

OTHER SITES

I feel like there is a bit of contradiction. You, Jeremy, made a comparison between TBT and Smogon, but then in response to daringred you said that TBT is not Smogon and is run differently. If you acknowledge that these sites are two separate entities, why bring up the comparison? Also, you cannot keep saying "stop taking what I said out of context" when people are responding within the parameters of your comment. They are not taking it out of context, they are taking a specific, problematic (in some cases, idk if the Smogon comparison can be considered all that problematic) part of your post, in the context and full knowledge of your post, and criticising it. I have seen so many people cry "misrepresentation!" when people point out a pretty weak/bad section of their statement.

My feedback: honestly, idek what to say to be honest. Just... Be more open to people responding to your posts? Idk feels pretty obvious to say, but that's the takeaway. Especially since the staff have said multiple times they take into consideration the concerns brought up by members of the TBT community but the don't really act on it. I mean, how long have members been asking for dark mode and it's only been discussed in passing recently? Leading onto my next point, actually...

DARK MODE & OTHER FEATURES

Dark mode would be extremely helpful! While I myself do not suffer from eyesight problems other than run-of-the-mill short sightedness, several of my siblings are extremely photosensitive! It's a side effect of a condition they have, and they had to take medication and eyedrops all their lives growing up until the crystallisation cleared up enough that they need only use drops maybe twice? a day instead of six I know many people here suffer from similar sight problems and photosensitivity, so I think it would be a good idea. That being said, I do understand that it costs money that the volunteering staff do not have! But still, it would be a good thing to keep in mind as a possible feature.

The other feature I'd like to mention is the deletion of accounts. There have been several people who wish to have their accounts removed but are not able to due to site policy stating that accounts with 12+ posts cannot be deleted. While I know that staff would be thinking about how much deleting accounts with several hundred or thousand posts would affect the flow of the forums, and one such member looking for account deletion mentioned that they ar legally entitled to this! It is the "right to erasure". Here is a link for anyone interested https://www.dataprotection.ie/en/individuals/know-your-rights/right-erasure-articles-17-19-gdpr
This person had mentioned that they have reached out to staff multiple times about this, but had not received a response!! Now, I do not know if this has been rectified, but if it hasn't, it should be. There is no reason why their concerns and rights should be ignored over the interest of a "smoothly running forum". I would very much like this to be addressed, that is, the deletion of accounts and the legality of refusing to do so! I personally do not currently wish to delete my account, but I know several and many others do!

EDIT: in any case, this is an excerpt from the link at the bottom of the page link I supplied, just in case this would be helpful for staff and others who would like their queries answered to know: "In any case, an organisation must always respond to your requests within one month, even if they believe they have grounds to refuse it. Where an organisation refuses or partly refuses your request, their response must set out clearly which limitation or restriction they are relying on to refuse to act on the request, their reasons for not taking action, and informing you of the possibility of lodging a complaint with the DPC or seeking a judicial remedy."

---

I would also like to say I think the cool down period is too long. I think two hours is plenty, but I do get why staff would want/need to optimise the amount of time they have between posts—hopefully utilising it for forming responses.

 

[Horus]

a night them would fix everything

 

[LambdaDelta]

one such member looking for account deletion mentioned that they ar legally entitled to this! It is the "right to erasure". Here is a link for anyone interested https://www.dataprotection.ie/en/individuals/know-your-rights/right-erasure-articles-17-19-gdpr
This person had mentioned that they have reached out to staff multiple times about this, but had not received a response!! Now, I do not know if this has been rectified, but if it hasn't, it should be. There is no reason why their concerns and rights should be ignored over the interest of a "smoothly running forum". I would very much like this to be addressed, that is, the deletion of accounts and the legality of refusing to do so! I personally do not currently wish to delete my account, but I know several and many others do!

gonna be real with you: I don't think this is legally binding here. both from a tbt presumably follows us jurisdiction law angle and from a personal data angle, of which I personally don't think many courts would rule in favor of here. for individual identifying info such as real name, location, etc, perhaps, but not as a blanket purge-the-whole-account-thing

that said, I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, but simply personal observations based on my own limited understanding of things. so if there's anyone actually practiced in law that wants to chime in, feel free. though my initial reaction is this feels very much faux-legallese, of which I'd rather people be at least aware of the possibility of

 

[xSuperMario64x]

okay, I said I wasn't going to comment here, but truthfully I feel like Im ready to handle this now, and it pains me to see so many of my friends hurt by what's going on. I don't have much time right now, and I don't feel like I need to repeat what others have said, but for now I'd at least like to touch on a few things I've noticed while reading through parts of the thread.

You don't have to be a registered member or even an adult to see most of the content on the forums, such as the WBY thread.

Im glad you mentioned this, because it's something that I had to learn the hard way. I have a lot of issues and I struggle a lot, so naturally I also vent a lot. and what I've come to understand—it was actually seliph who taught me this lesson, believe it or not—is that some things should not be made public. it only takes a moment to look at a post you've written and think, is this appropriate for a public Animal Crossing forum? in my case, I kind of feel like a lot of my issues are way too personal for this place. I am now limiting my venting to my journal and private Discord chats. there are some things that should not be in the public eye.

sorry but if i jumped into this thread without a clue about what's going on, these are some of the first details i'd notice

exactly. when I woke up this morning I was so far out of the loop, I had no idea what was going on. it only took 30 min and a few pages of reading for me to see and understand what's happening.

I don't think it's feasible to go back and remove every discriminatory or inappropriate post made over the last 20 years.

nor is it necessary. those posts serve as a reminder of what not to do. let's not repeat history here. I do understand if a post is incredibly offensive, then yeah maybe delete it. but you do not want people forgetting what happened, and you want to make sure people understand what happened and the consequences of those posts. because deleting a post/comment has a tendency to remove accountability.
(and honestly, in this sense, it's really in the staff's favour because they have the ability to edit/delete all forum posts, which seems unfair to me)

I really just want to know if the expectation is for us to take those down or leave them up for eternity in the Feedback Thread.

I think they should be left, for the reason I stated above. the staff need to be held accountable for what they say/do, and so do members. again, I understand if something is so gruesome and offensive that it needs to be removed. but in some instances, removing posts at staff discretion can be seen as silencing, which is disrespectful.

also, while the posts should be deleted, the idea that a staff member can go back and scrub inappropriate posts of theirs - even if they are posts that shouldn't exist - and others can instead face criticism for bringing up / sharing these posts doesn't sit quite right with me in a way i can't find the proper words to verbalise at 4AM.

yes, I feel like this staff member needs to be held accountable. and I agree that not being allowed to publicly name staff when offering feedback is ridiculous. as a staff member you have an obligation to run and maintain this forum, as such you deserve accountability and the affected user(s) deserve a public acknowledgement and apology. especially for something that... gross. I'm sorry, I truly am, I know the inappropriate post was made during a really difficult time in Chris's life, but as I mentioned previously, it only takes a moment to look at your written message and ask yourself if it's appropriate for a public Animal Crossing forum. I wish nothing but the best for him going forward, but making posts like that is absolutely inexcusable. theres only so much leeway that can be given in terms of allowing someone to make mistakes and grow as a person, they need to be held accountable for their actions. if I were a moderator and I did something this objectionable, I would most certainly step down. that's part of life, being held accountable and accepting the consequences of your actions. it's a hard fact.


I dont have any more time to respond right now as I have to leave for work soon, but I want to say that I am so sorry for everyone affected, including seliph. and I am also sorry if anything I said about this thread came across as ignorant or rude. I see you all, and I seek to understand. I have many amazing friends here and I want to make sure you are all okay. and also, I have been an active member here for nine years, and my participation in this discussion is because I love this forum and I would hate to see it crumble any more. i also refuse to stick my head in the sand and be oblivious to whats happening here. I will be keeping my eye on this thread.

if there is anything I said that is wrong, please let me know. I'm just doing my best with what I've seen/read so far.



edit: fixed typos bc my phone keyboard sucks.

 

[Gabby]

Aye y'all should delete this thread