The Official Feedback Thread

[-Apples-]

Thanks for the response.

I would also like to add that if we should not let neurodiversity excuse people’s behavior when they’re posting hateful material or material that some (if not, many) find to be sexual, then we should also not let neurodiversity excuse people’s behavior if they’re going to act manipulative to earn collectibles, scam people, or get attention by spamming on everyone’s profile. The latter acts may not compare to more serious stuff like bigotry and sexual harassment, but I still want to take that into consideration since they are still annoying behaviors no matter who is doing it.

 

[oath2order]

One thing we have not yet discussed on the staff team is support or enjoyment of problematic properties. This would include things like the Harry Potter universe, which was previously mentioned in this thread. And it's this point where I specifically had neurodivergence in mind when I wrote my prior post. I can recall at least one instance where I witnessed a neurodivergent individual being told they needed to abandon their special interest because it was harmful or because the creator was problematic. They became quite obviously distressed and could not link the negative association with the franchise they loved, at least not in that moment.

These are the types of decisions we need to balance to provide an equally safe environment for all. I'd love to hear from you all if you have any comments or suggestions related to this.

I think that when it comes to this part specifically, I don't think that's something the forum staff should decide. I don't think banning discussion of "problematic properties" is the way to go about it. The Harry Potter universe is not inherently problematic; the creator is the issue.

Let's say you believe Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Do we no longer get to talk about Starbucks, or any other company here that still does business in Israel because that's problematic?

When Tomodachi Life 1 released, Nintendo got so much backlash that they apologized for failing to include same-sex relationships (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ninten...ame-sex-controversy-over-tomodachi-life-game/). Let's assume for the sake of argument that Tomodachi Life 2 also excludes same-sex relationships. Do we ban discussion of Tomodachi Life 2 because that's homophobic? Do we ban the discussion of all the old Harvest Moon games for that same reason?

Do we ban the discussion of old TV shows, that are not inherently problematic, but have significant issues in one or two episodes? For example, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. You have the ties of that to Joss Whedon, who contributes to what is called "toxic workplace environments", but also significantly uses what some consider a slur for Romani people in that show.

If you don't support something, don't comment in the thread about it. I think it's that simple. If you don't enjoy a certain content, just ignore and don't post in the thread about it. I don't like anime. There's also a lot of problematic things in anime, both tropes at-large and with specific shows. I don't want to ban the discussion of it; I just ignore the thread.

Basically, what I'm getting at is that I don't believe support of an intellectual property is inherently supportive of any ideas the creator of the intellectual property may hold, problematic or not, and the forum should not ban discussion of intellectual property unless said property violates the rules in some other method.

 

[daringred_]

I think that when it comes to this part specifically, I don't think that's something the forum staff should decide. I don't think banning discussion of "problematic properties" is the way to go about it. The Harry Potter universe is not inherently problematic; the creator is the issue.

Let's say you believe Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Do we no longer get to talk about Starbucks, or any other company here that still does business in Israel because that's problematic?

When Tomodachi Life 1 released, Nintendo got so much backlash that they apologized for failing to include same-sex relationships (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ninten...ame-sex-controversy-over-tomodachi-life-game/). Let's assume for the sake of argument that Tomodachi Life 2 also excludes same-sex relationships. Do we ban discussion of Tomodachi Life 2 because that's homophobic? Do we ban the discussion of all the old Harvest Moon games for that same reason?

Do we ban the discussion of old TV shows, that are not inherently problematic, but have significant issues in one or two episodes? For example, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. You have the ties of that to Joss Whedon, who contributes to what is called "toxic workplace environments", but also significantly uses what some consider a slur for Romani people in that show.

If you don't support something, don't comment in the thread about it. I think it's that simple. If you don't enjoy a certain content, just ignore and don't post in the thread about it. I don't like anime. There's also a lot of problematic things in anime, both tropes at-large and with specific shows. I don't want to ban the discussion of it; I just ignore the thread.

Basically, what I'm getting at is that I don't believe support of an intellectual property is inherently supportive of any ideas the creator of the intellectual property may hold, problematic or not, and the forum should not ban discussion of intellectual property unless said property violates the rules in some other method.

this is much different because support of that universe/franchise actively supports her and gives her money, which she is using to help change laws for the worse here in the UK. buying anything HP related is an active choice and completely non-essential if you have any morals, and her bigotry is WIDELY known at this point. if you're discussing a HP game, for example, you must have bought it and supported her financially as a result. (and this is just ignoring that the universe is problematic, but i digress.) it's all good to talk hypotheticals but we're talking about this lmao.

 

[LadyDestani]

First, I want to say that I boycott companies and creators who would use my money to further a cause I cannot agree with, so in that respect I understand exactly where people are coming from when they get upset by this. However, especially when dealing with games, movies, or books, there are ways to enjoy the property without funding the creator.

if you're discussing a HP game, for example, you must have bought it and supported her financially as a result.

I spoke to Chris about this before he went on hiatus. He had free access to the game because someone he shares a gaming catalogue with bought it. I realize that does still mean someone bought it, but that was a choice they made for themselves. Chris was not involved in their decision.

There's also the option of buying something secondhand. Likewise, borrowing from a library or someone you know keeps your money out of the creator's pockets.

I've been thinking about this since it was first brought up, and I wonder if it would have made a difference to anyone if a disclaimer was added to the OP in that thread. It could have stated something along the lines of: "This is not an endorsement of the creator. Please be aware the creator uses money from purchases of this property to fund anti-trans, anti-LGBTQ+ legislation. If you'd like to enjoy this property without financially supporting the creator, here are some options." [See above for examples.]

 

[LambdaDelta]

However, especially when dealing with games, movies, or books, there are ways to enjoy the property without funding the creator.

I think we should promote and encourage piracy in those instances, yes

 

[daringred_]

First, I want to say that I boycott companies and creators who would use my money to further a cause I cannot agree with, so in that respect I understand exactly where people are coming from when they get upset by this. However, especially when dealing with games, movies, or books, there are ways to enjoy the property without funding the creator.


I spoke to Chris about this before he went on hiatus. He had free access to the game because someone he shares a gaming catalogue with bought it. I realize that does still mean someone bought it, but that was a choice they made for themselves. Chris was not involved in their decision.

There's also the option of buying something secondhand. Likewise, borrowing from a library or someone you know keeps your money out of the creator's pockets.

I've been thinking about this since it was first brought up, and I wonder if it would have made a difference to anyone if a disclaimer was added to the OP in that thread. It could have stated something along the lines of: "This is not an endorsement of the creator. Please be aware the creator uses money from purchases of this property to fund anti-trans, anti-LGBTQ+ legislation. If you'd like to enjoy this property without financially supporting the creator, here are some options." [See above for examples.]

respectfully, i wasn't talking about chris, this was a general statement, and most pc games you won't get secondhand regardless because they're not often released physically if they're exclusive. this also extends beyond games to merch, movies, the new tv show, i just used the game as an example since there was a hogwarts legacy thread here. that said, even if he didn't personally buy it, he was on here promoting it, so, y'know. if you want to try the divorce the creator from the creation thing, be my guest, but she's not dead, she's actively funding and spreading her bigotry, she still benefits from any brand recognition, and people are going to still rightfully judge others for associating with it. i used to be a major harry potter fan, literally went to the studios in london multiple times and everything, but i manage perfectly fine without interacting with it whatsoever now. it's not so crazy to suggest there isn't a thread on it, given this forum's track record with transphobia especially, let alone when there are plenty of other places for you to discuss the game or franchise if you really feel the need. regardless, my gripe was more to the previous commenter trying to make unfair comparisons. unless every flawed anime is mass funding organizations in support of their problematic "issues", the argument is a non-sequitur.

also, is there a reason the feedback about the cooldown has just seemingly gone ignored despite being asked for, especially now that the thread is near silent. having to wait two hours (as of writing) to answer you feels a little ridiculous at this point.

@Sheando in the nicest way possible, i'm not going to reply fully to your post because the cooldown is too killer and, honestly, some of it is addressed in this post. again, we're not discussing hypotheticals, especially when they're different beasts that are more heavily ingrained in daily lives, like social media or coffee or whatever else you want to throw out there, which HP is not. it is one single franchise and one woman you can very much live without discussing at a bare minimum. this is not about moral purity. i literally live under the government she is using her finances to influence, and will be directly harmed by her if she carries on -- while some minorities already are being.

 

[Sheando]

Edit: deleting my post because I’ve been made aware that at least one user is posting elsewhere urging others to “kill me” for posting here. I’m sure the wording was hyperbolic, but as someone who has endured actual violent threats, I’d prefer not to relive that experience here on an Animal Crossing forum. Feeling pretty sick to my stomach, which I’m sure was the goal. Congrats.

@daringred, I understand where you’re coming from and won’t say anything further. The point about how ingrained different things are is legitimate. I was genuinely curious as to whether you’d advocate for a longer list of things being banned here for the same reason, not trying to say “ha, gotcha!” I try hard to write respectfully but sometimes it may seem detached or dismissive, which is not my intent. I’m only commenting here because I just wanted to say that it took a long time to write my earlier post and I did not see your later reply before posting, so I didn’t mean to retread old ground.

 

[oath2order]

Edit: deleting my post because I’ve been made aware that at least one user is posting elsewhere urging others to “kill me” for posting here. I’m sure the wording was hyperbolic, but as someone who has endured actual violent threats, I’d prefer not to relive that experience here on an Animal Crossing forum. Feeling pretty sick to my stomach, which I’m sure was the goal. Congrats.

For God's sake can we not do this people.

snip

So is that the threshold? Not problematic media but they have to be funding problematic organizations? What if an author is transphobic but is proven to not fund problematic organizations? Can we talk about their works? What if they're dead and the money goes to their organization, which supports pro-trans groups? Do we allow discussion because of the positive funding or disallow because of the views?

Basically what I'm trying to get at is what exactly is the line we draw for problematic content creators, and who decides what problematic content we allow or disallow?

As an aside, here's a more pressing example. Nintendo only allowed darker skin tones in games prior to New Horizons and Pocket Camp through tanning. The default skin color was white and you could not permanently have another skin tone. This was argued by people to be racist.

Per Open Secrets, Nintendo donated to the Kamala Harris campaign, as well as Trump, and the National Republican Senatorial Committee. They have given money to the campaign of a fascist. In terms of Animal Crossing, it's a problematic design decision. They have donated to a person actively making people's lives worse. Do we ban discussion of prior Animal Crossing games?

Nintendo Co Profile: Summary

Nintendo Co organization profile. Contributions in the 2024 cycle: $40,663. Lobbying in 2024: $120,000. Outside Spending in the 2024 cycle: $0.

www.opensecrets.org

 

[Gabby]

Throwing in my $0.02. I would like to make this clear from the beginning: I do not support Harry Potter or J.K. Rowling.

In the case of Harry Potter
Generally, I see the point that folks are making with regards to "well if we can't discuss Harry Potter because of moral purity reasons, then what stops us from discussing or policing other problematic topics?" I think this is a reasonable point to make. However, I feel there is another reasonable point to make and I'd like to make it here: that argument is out of context with the culture that exists on TBT.

There is a large population of trans people on TBT and J.K. Rowling is actively harmful to trans people. People in a community make the culture of that community. TBT's culture is shaped by its members, a lot of which who identify with the trans community or broadly the LGBTQIA+ community. This is the reality.

I think ignoring this fact and making comparisons to other potentially problematic topics is taking the argument out of the context of who makes up this website. I think it's understandable that TBT's community is against supporting a person who is actively harmful to the trans community.

I don't think it's about moral purity so much as it is a scary reality for trans folks that there is a powerful person with a lot of money who is trying to make life harder for them with their massive wealth. Seeing other member's support or discuss this topic with such a blasé attitude can be tiring, exhausting, and feel defeating that their plight is being ignored because someone wants to play a video game. I think this is a legitimate and valid feeling to have given the context of J.K. Rowling and what she supports.

With that said...
I think the community at large needs to be careful about what conversational topics they are willing to police or not. It is a slippery slope to making people feel afraid for saying something incorrectly, when they really are just uneducated about the topic. This pushes people to not caring about certain issues as they'll be afraid if they say something wrong, someone who disagrees with them will be mean. This is the biggest issue I see facing social justice issues today. No one enjoys being preached to about how they should be living their life, no matter where you fall on the political spectrum.

I think it would be useful to give folks the benefit of the doubt and attempt to educate people in a kind, polite way as to why supporting something like Harry Potter is really lame as it contributing to the oppression of trans folks.

I think it's also important to remember that while it seems a majority of the users here are left-leaning, not everyone is and people are going to disagree. Left-leaning folks have a tendency to strike down certain conversations rather quickly because they can understand the harm they can bring or they understand the harm it supports. However, this strike-down can really turn people off to left-leaning politics as it can seem a little militant. Some folks are uneducated about how deep certain issues go, and how something as seemingly harmless (to some) as supporting Harry Potter can have real-world impacts. I understand too this goes beyond left-leaning politics and is a matter of supporting basic human rights, but LGBTQIA+/trans issues are often lumped in with left-leaning politics, and that is also a reality that we need to accept.

So, I would like to encourage people here to try to come from a place of softness to educate and explain to folks why supporting HP is harmful. I think you can extend this to boycotting other brands, companies, etc as well but I'm attempting to remain on topic. Some people are uneducated about how supporting certain people contributes to the active harm of certain groups. Some people are educated about it and do it anyway.

I think the majority of people here wants everyone to have a comfortable, safe, and thriving life. I don't believe the people supporting or playing HP on here are actively hateful to trans people, more so they are nostalgic for a brand that was very influential for a lot of young people growing up in the 2000's. This doesn't change that supporting the brand is harmful to trans people and I think that's the crux of this issue.

So I ask us all this: are we a community that wants to police and ban conversational topics that we find harmful? Or are we a community that wants to be education centered? How far do we give someone the benefit of the doubt with regard to a problematic topic? What is the middle ground between total conversational policing and tolerating intolerant ideas?

I do not have an answer to these questions, but I wanted to pose these questions to the community because I think there is a lot of nuance to this discussion that people are failing to grasp, or there are getting distracted with other media topics. I think it would be useful to keep the HP discussion within the context of who makes up the community of TBT. Personally, I think if there is any discussion of HP on TBT, there has to be a giant disclaimer and educational post about why supporting and giving money to J.K. Rowling is bad and you can find other means of enjoying that media.

Be nice.

 

[-Blue-]

There are issues with this forum and we all need to address them and hopefully try to make this place better. I am positive the majority of us on here, whether we're still here, permanently left, or on hiatus care deeply about this place. I know for me I love all of the friends I've made on here. Whether we talk all the time or once in a blue moon.

 

[-Mars-]

@Jeremy can you maybe consider lowering cooldown to like 1-3 hours instead of 4?

 

[LambdaDelta]

Edit: deleting my post because I’ve been made aware that at least one user is posting elsewhere urging others to “kill me” for posting here. I’m sure the wording was hyperbolic, but as someone who has endured actual violent threats, I’d prefer not to relive that experience here on an Animal Crossing forum. Feeling pretty sick to my stomach, which I’m sure was the goal. Congrats.

if you understand it's hyperbolic (which it clearly was), then why are you publicly dragging it out here? this is frankly just such bad faith pity farming, when you could've just as easily contacted the poster to say "hey, I know you probably didn't mean it seriously but as someone who has dealt with actual violence threats, this was really distressing to me, so could you please not do that anymore?" or something along those lines. since I guarantee making you feel sick or anything was never the intention, maliciously or otherwise

like how do we go through multiple pages of problems that would've easily been solved had anyone tried to actually TALK to the other person instead of doing everything else they've been doing, and here we get another textbook example of the community failing at that with flying colors. it's equal parts astounding and embarrassing

 

[EpicGamer12]

if you understand it's hyperbolic (which it clearly was), then why are you publicly dragging it out here? this is frankly just such bad faith pity farming, when you could've just as easily contacted the poster to say "hey, I know you probably didn't mean it seriously but as someone who has dealt with actual violence threats, this was really distressing to me, so could you please not do that anymore?" or something along those lines. since I guarantee making you feel sick or anything was never the intention, maliciously or otherwise

like how do we go through multiple pages of problems that would've easily been solved had anyone tried to actually TALK to the other person instead of doing everything else they've been doing, and here we get another textbook example of the community failing at that with flying colors. it's equal parts astounding and embarrassing

I think it highlights that a portion of the community are tucked away in their private chats breeding toxicity and collaborating on the next inflammatory topic to get their pitchforks out about. Sheando's post was very civil and was the exact type of discussion we want to be able to have here, but now you're blaming them for being uncomfortable at hyperbolic death threats. Even if it was entirely obvious they were hyperbolic, is there really a point engaging these discussions in good faith when there is a discord of people ready to attempt to weaponize everything you write against you at a moments notice? I saw the screenshot too and I have no idea who that person even is, so how would Sheando know how to communicate with them? Or maybe you could not blame Sheando and instead the person issuing toxic comments could take accountability for their harmful words?

 

[Lancelot]

I think it highlights that a portion of the community are tucked away in their private chats breeding toxicity and collaborating on the next inflammatory topic to get their pitchforks out about. Sheando's post was very civil and was the exact type of discussion we want to be able to have here, but now you're blaming them for being uncomfortable at hyperbolic death threats. Even if it was entirely obvious they were hyperbolic, is there really a point engaging these discussions in good faith when there is a discord of people ready to attempt to weaponize everything you write against you at a moments notice? I saw the screenshot too and I have no idea who that person even is, so how would Sheando know how to communicate with them? Or maybe you could not blame Sheando and instead the person issuing toxic comments could take accountability for their harmful words?

I’m going off what I understand about this conversation so I’m very open to being corrected, but I think it highlights the portion of the community that are constantly trying to stir up trouble and get away with it tbh.

Maybe it was a misunderstanding but imo whoever shared the screenshot out of context was trying to start something and didn’t have any actual concern for Sheando. I’ve read the entire conversation and they it meant “kill” as in ‘someone write a kick ass reply to sheando because I can’t reply yet”. Kill as in kill it, smash it, do an astounding job or however you want to phrase it. It was then instantly followed by a comment about the persons cooldown not being over, so unless the screenshot was shared out of context I personally don’t see how it would be framed as a threat.

I admit it was badly worded as an individual message, but the message directly after it gave it context.

I appreciate this isn’t the case everywhere but at least where I’m from ‘kill’ is also slang and it seems to me that someone either didn’t understand that or was trying to cause drama as opposed to actually having any concern for Sheando.

And to be clear, I’m not blaming Sheando for not reaching out because I absolutely wouldn’t if someone had made a death threat towards me - but it wasn’t a death threat and whoever shared it should’ve been clear about that or not shared it in the first place. Similarly, if said person had such great concern they could’ve contacted staff or the person directly. I don’t see anything beneficial about sharing it with Sheando out of context, but again I’m happy to be corrected on this.

There’s been lots of comments about taking information out of context or spreading misinformation and it seems to be happening once again. I don’t think it’s fair or beneficial to either party to say “hyperbolic death threats” when it wasn’t a death threat in the first place.

Edit: also I’m sorry that whatever context it was provided to you in that it made you made to feel beyond uncomfortable @/sheando. I hope this didn’t come across as me dismissing how you feel - more of an insight into to the full context of the conversation and I hope at some point you feel ok posting again as everyone should be free to share their feedback.

 

[Aerith]

If you don't support something, don't comment in the thread about it. I think it's that simple. If you don't enjoy a certain content, just ignore and don't post in the thread about it. I don't like anime. There's also a lot of problematic things in anime, both tropes at-large and with specific shows. I don't want to ban the discussion of it; I just ignore the thread.

I agree with this up to a certain point. While I encourage people to avoid what makes them unhappy, I don't think it's wrong for someone to go into these threads and comment, "I'm not supporting XYZ because ABC reasons." It's an opinion and they are entitled to expressing it. This only becomes a problem if discussion deteriorates into name-calling or, "everyone in this thread is a horrible person."

Edit: deleting my post because I’ve been made aware that at least one user is posting elsewhere urging others to “kill me” for posting here. I’m sure the wording was hyperbolic, but as someone who has endured actual violent threats, I’d prefer not to relive that experience here on an Animal Crossing forum. Feeling pretty sick to my stomach, which I’m sure was the goal. Congrats.

This is how you shut down discussions. Who wants to speak if they feel like they're going to be made into a punching bag for others' aggression? If you're so heated to the point of viewing a person respectfully expressing a different perspective as, "an enemy to be destroyed", you should take a step back. At least until you can choose your words more carefully.

I'm disappointed to see this because I think Sheando made some great points, and now no one will be able to see them.

Edit: I was reached out to regarding this message and it's clear that context was removed on purpose. While I still think my original response has merit, it's messed up to misconstrue people's posts. It makes you look bad, and it had real consequences in making Sheando feel unsafe. You stirred the pot and you succeeded in making both parties upset. We do not need this crap, please.

So is that the threshold? Not problematic media but they have to be funding problematic organizations? What if an author is transphobic but is proven to not fund problematic organizations? Can we talk about their works? What if they're dead and the money goes to their organization, which supports pro-trans groups? Do we allow discussion because of the positive funding or disallow because of the views?

Basically what I'm trying to get at is what exactly is the line we draw for problematic content creators, and who decides what problematic content we allow or disallow?

As an aside, here's a more pressing example. Nintendo only allowed darker skin tones in games prior to New Horizons and Pocket Camp through tanning. The default skin color was white and you could not permanently have another skin tone. This was argued by people to be racist.

Per Open Secrets, Nintendo donated to the Kamala Harris campaign, as well as Trump, and the National Republican Senatorial Committee. They have given money to the campaign of a fascist. In terms of Animal Crossing, it's a problematic design decision. They have donated to a person actively making people's lives worse. Do we ban discussion of prior Animal Crossing games?

Nintendo Co Profile: Summary

Nintendo Co organization profile. Contributions in the 2024 cycle: $40,663. Lobbying in 2024: $120,000. Outside Spending in the 2024 cycle: $0.

www.opensecrets.org

I didn't know this (incredibly disappointing to hear) and you raise a good point. It's also more concise than everything I wrote, but the words are already written, so they're going here anyways lmao

My concern with banning any singular problematic property is that it becomes a never-ending goalpost for both staff and members to keep up with. There won't simply be banning one franchise and everything's settled - you'll get members who find XYZ upsetting and why hasn't that been banned, because the creators are benefiting from that? If staff and members don't listen to these concerns, they become hypocrites.

Take Neil Gaiman, for example. He’s created countless popular works, yet supporting any of them is lining the pockets of a known abuser. The NSRVC reports that 81% of women and 43% of men have experienced some form of sexual harassment and/or assault in their lifetime. If the forum aims to be a safe space, consistency will mean banning his content as well.

People can't always be expected to know the full background of every creator or company. Yo****aka Amano, best known for his Final Fantasy art and logos, has created artwork for Japan’s Liberal Democratic Party - a group with anti-LGBT+ stances and a history of nationalist rhetoric. They’re the reason why same-sex marriage isn’t legalized in Japan, and several prominent politicians have also gone on record to deny Japan's history of brutal war crimes. Toyota, Nissan, and Subaru have each made significant donations to this party, with Toyota donating ¥50 million yen in 2024 (they also donated to Trump's inauguration fund). Would you have known that if I hadn't told you? Maybe, but probably not.

Rowling’s views may be prominent online but go into any mixed space IRL and you’ll encounter dozens of people who have no idea. And since this is forum with a broad range of ages and backgrounds, you're going to get kids/teens who don't understand the controversy of problematic media and older users who feel nostalgic about movies/books that haven’t aged well.

It isn't fair to expect staff and members to keep up with this. It's also significantly more work to moderate, requiring staff to change and monitor usernames, purge references, and even delete passing mentions like, “I got butterbeer at Universal,” (Rowling benefits from Universal ticket sales). Neil Gaiman's works would be even more difficult to scrub from the forum because it's not one singular property like HP.

It would be awesome and ideal if everyone were socially conscious and made ethical choices, especially when it comes to voting with their wallets. If we were all that collectively proactive, we’d finally address and be able to dismantle the harmful systems our societies were founded on. But that's not where we're at right now.

I don't think staff need to publicly express their rejection of all problematic media (it's too performative for me personally), but I do think it's their responsibility, as they plan events, to be considerate when subjects are divisive. For instance, it would be incredibly tone-deaf for staff to make a Camp where everyone was sorted into each of the 4 HP Houses. fairysyndrome mentioned that they were upset an Egg Hunt had people digging in the Hogwarts Legacy thread, and I agree that people shouldn't have been made to do that.

People should educate others, but individuals should ultimately retain the choice of whether to engage with media or not. Sometimes this can help you figure out who you do or don’t want to interact with. I don't think it's realistic or sustainable to expect staff and members to keep up with a list of problematic properties, even if it's reduced to creators that are alive and benefit from your engagement. This kind of media awareness and restriction works better in close-knit groups or like-minded communities founded with this ideal in the first place. For a big, diverse community like this one, it doesn’t seem practical.

I recognize that not banning controversial media can make the forum feel less like a safe space, but honestly, I don't think a true safe space is even possible here (or anywhere where people exist IMO). That level of safety only really has the possibility of existing in heavily moderated, kid-friendly environments (and even then, they only ban the type of content, not usually particular pieces of media). As TBT is right now, it does not have the resources to become that, but maybe it could, if it got more active staff.

I believe TBT can be welcoming and safer than other online spaces, but when you’ve got such a diverse group of people, someone’s always going to feel uncomfortable. And people have different definitions of what safety means to them. For some, it’s about being socially aware; for others, it’s about avoiding conflict and negativity altogether. You're not likely to find both existing within the same safe space, because being socially conscious means dealing with anger and injustice.

There is a large population of trans people on TBT and J.K. Rowling is actively harmful to trans people. People in a community make the culture of that community. TBT's culture is shaped by its members, a lot of which who identify with the trans community or broadly the LGBTQIA+ community. This is the reality.

I think ignoring this fact and making comparisons to other potentially problematic topics is taking the argument out of the context of who makes up this website. I think it's understandable that TBT's community is against supporting a person who is actively harmful to the trans community.

I also do not make my posts out of a need to defend HP (the world-building alone is something I could have a field day with), and I agree that it's important to take into consideration the culture of the community. Still, banning one property and refusing to ban others does imply only caring when something affects you directly, and that doesn't feel great to see. I'd also argue that, if the majority opinion doesn't want to engage in a particular piece of media, do you even need a official ban in the first place? The discussion will either die on its own or you can choose not to look at it. Still, if there's a way for forum software to allow users to ignore threads, that would be fantastic!

For me personally, if my friends or people I'm hanging out with want to partake in media I disagree with, I bow out and do something else (and if I feel comfortable with them, I'll explain why). The only time I will tell them not to engage with XYZ around me is on the individual basis, because it's just me and them, not dozens of different people with different feelings on the matter.


(sorry to any posts after Gabby's, I have not read them... it has taken me several hours to post this and I want to relax after a crappy work day lol)

 

[LadyDestani]

Hi all,

I wasn't planning on posting here tonight. I had a long day, it's late, and I'm tired, but I think we all need to be careful with our word choices.

It's very disappointing to hear that another person has felt silenced and/or attacked for opinions they shared in this thread. This is not the first time, it probably won't be the last time, but I think we owe it to each other to try to do better. As staff, we want to hear all opinions, even if they're unpopular, as long as they're made in good faith. It's fine to disagree with the points someone made, but to use violent and threatening language is taking things too far.

I understand it was not intended to be taken literally, but we need to think less about our intentions and more about the impact we're having on the people around us. Everyone just wants to be able to share their thoughts and they shouldn't have to fear speaking up publicly.

I know the cooldown length has people frustrated. I will talk to Jeremy about it the next time he's available.

Please, all I'm asking is to be kind to each other and give everyone a little grace.

 

[LambdaDelta]

I understand it was not intended to be taken literally, but we need to think less about our intentions and more about the impact we're having on the people around us. Everyone just wants to be able to share their thoughts and they shouldn't have to fear speaking up publicly.

I'm sorry, and I know you mean well, but putting the blame on the POSTER instead of the individual who leaked it with quite frankly malicious intentions via intentionally scrubbing away context to make it look worse than it is is honestly disgusting

you can talk about thinking about the impact of words all you want, but that only applies if one side isn't intentionally trying to start **** up. I'm not gonna start thinking about how someone could maybe pull out a single string of words in my post to then try to spin I said/meant something else entirely. it's ****ing stupid and you should be ashamed for insinuating that anyone who doesn't do this is to blame

 

[-Raven-]

I didn’t read all of the last page so scorn me for that but I’m going to chime in because 1) from skimming I’m not sure anyone responded to a certain point, and 2) I have very strong stances regardless of how I would respond to anyone else here.

For point 1) @LadyDestani I think putting a disclaimer about controversial IPs not being condoned would at least be a good first step and is a suggestion I wish more people discussed. I think I’ve seen it on another gaming forum which I’m not a member of, but I lurk regularly for gaming news. If nothing else that would promote consciousness around topics. Also, THANK YOU for being incredibly active here and providing such clear and calm responses as usual. I don’t know if that’s where handling these topics could/should end, but I want to give you a thumbs up for the thought.

Now 2) as for how far these things go, I think that’s really difficult to say- I think the discussion has diverted to where limits should be drawn before what the solution to such topics should be (and I don’t think this is wholly a bad thing)- I would really like to say just put it up to community votes and suggestions but I’ll be honest, seeing how this thread has gone I wonder if that’s just going to result in a stalemate of arguments. Make it vibe-based and it could just end up like this thread, make it majority based and you could be excluding topics that hurt some people worse than others.

If you want to go to the absolute extreme I’mma be real: it makes me depressed that so much of the world is still structured about using Windows. Microsoft is a disgusting company and I won’t mince words, they’re directly supplying the genocide with new computer tech and software- search “BDS Movement Microsoft”, unfortunate acronym but that’s how it be. So let’s say we ban any discussion around any game releasing on any Microsoft consoles because of this. That would cut tons of activity right? But why make an exception for them just because they’re popular and because so many games happen to release on XBox or GamePass or hell most games only natively supporting Windows on PC?

HOWEVER I don’t think this invalidates the point that topics like Harry Potter either could be banned or at the least deserve a condemnation label- my reasoning is, how many of you even knew about what Microsoft are doing? How many of you would switch to Linux or something in response? And how much argument is there over that? When you engage with a Microsoft product you were probably not making the conscious decision and contributing to that sort of “creator said outright that they’re hateful but I’ll support their work, which they say is supporting them, anyway”. You simply happened to be using it. I think the controversy around HP is so large that most people engaging with it at this point actively know they’re making a decision there, or at least most people on this forum would be aware of it. I think having HP discussions without at least any disclaimer thus seems to be in pretty poor taste, and will imply / seem to some lurkers like the rhetoric Rowling promotes could be acceptable. I’m trans yet really can’t speak for the people most directly hurt by seeing it (I live in a very queer-friendly country compared to others, literally yesterday I was at the doctor and everyone in that office would support me and I have a greater freedom of choice on who is there with my journey, I have privilege on this front and I’m going to acknowledge that), but simply having a disclaimer at least promotes solidarity over it. Not only that HP sucks (it does), but that this community should celebrate queer, ND, etc. rights.

It’s really hard to deal with this if you aren’t just going to ban the topic of HP outright because then if people want to discuss the problems around HP- which I really don’t think should be a banned topic, even in HP-centric threads- how are you going to moderate that? The creator of the series is radical and hateful and inseparable from the property. I can’t stress that enough and yes I will repeat it again. To be honest I genuinely think the best course of action is just to ban the topic because HP is genuinely exceptional in some ways (I’ll get to this shortly) and it’s the easiest route for moderation and if you aren’t doing that then you need to be prepared to moderate the response to HP on this forum, although either choice will leave some people unsatisfied.

To interject: I don’t know who was bullied over having this as their special interest but I’m sorry for it. I really don’t agree with supporting the series at all but I’m ashamed to see in general how many people are attacking others on this forum over disagreements. This is why I actively avoided being in anything that would involve any cliques here lmao.

One unique problem with Harry Potter I think is that there’s still a lot of argument about wether it does benefit hateful movements when the creator outright says supporting the series is supporting her views. Perhaps not on this forum but in general life, people still argue about it, when Rowling says it outright.

I know it doesn’t seem like much but look at where the USA is- unfortunately how out and loud someone is really matters these days and these things are NOT all the same, that’s kind of apathy towards different forms of hate, when genuinely they have different impacts. The out and loud hate that Rowling does is more rapidly furthering hate tactics that have been successful in certain countries. In the UK I’m sure many hateful people are okay and louder and happy to act and speak hatefully- or were lead into hate- because J.K. Rowling is genuinely a celebrity a lot of people liked, or got attached to, or that some groups of people associated with and then got dragged along with her craziness after she became louder about it.

There was a “mom writes stories for kids, gets them to read, self-made billionaire” narrative around her that would make people assume she’s a wholesome person. I have family members that had no idea that she was crazy. She is a cultural icon in the UK and from what I see the UK genuinely adopts quite a lot from some of their cultural icons into their country. She ties supporting her series to supporting hate. She said it. You cannot separate buying HP products or supporting the series monetarily with that when she is tangibly doing this and hurting people. You’re just saying your views don’t align with hers which is great and valid but to be frank she and the hate groups don’t care because they got your money. I’m not saying you’re a bad person because consumption isn’t that simple (and I’ll get to this near the end), but supporting HP is supporting Rowling.

I think when it goes that far that the creator is out and proud about it, and a figurehead to a lot of people, then it’s more important to do something about it. As much as I absolutely hate Microsoft and genuinely encourage people to switch to Linux- seriously please get off Windows or dual boot if you absolutely NEED specific programs that only work on Windows, look up Linux Mint for your first distro- when you use it you’re indirectly boosting what Microsoft is doing and that sucks but it’s not the same type of hate and harm, it’s horrible, but I genuinely think there’s nuance to this. I think this explains why Harry Potter is always such a sore topic when it comes to people supporting it, the creator is a celebrity who loudly aligns with and promotes hate groups. That and the series is aimed at kids! Rowling wants children to learn how to hate like her and hurt the children in minorities! Microsoft is insidious in different ways, more silently, in some ways that’s worse. But like, can we all agree both of these things are problematic and we can have a warning label for HP at the minimum? I would even like the topic banned but we can’t have perfect be the enemy of good with everything. that is sincerely a problem a lot of progressive spaces have in my experience.

To be frank Harry Potter was always problematic as hell anyway with things like the elves and the goblin stereotypes. I remember when I was a kid nobody thought Rowling was crazy but I saw discussion around those topics. In my opinion that series just sucks for children. When people act like JK being a bigot was a shocking reveal I feel like they collectively forgot or ignored that stuff in the series. I’m not here to debate the quality of it it as a series so don’t even bother replying to this point but oh man I gotta get that out when I’m talking about HP so much.

And for one last point that might just contradict all of this to some of you, or make me seem more disingenuous or not progressive enough or some rubbish. On the topic of consumption. I don’t think that shouting at specific individuals to unconditionally boycott something is really helpful. Once again, I’m really speaking from a priveleged position on issues like this because my country isn’t goddamn crazy like America or the UK. However, I think every one of us buys something we don’t need, wether or not it’s by accident, from a problematic company, and I’m not even going to get into how problematic current manufacturing is.

My personal POV is, debates about this are helpful and healthy, targeting and shaming a random few people into a property on one platform is not, in times like these, we’re all looking for things to help us live our lives. When the Switch 2 price was announced I saw people in some servers I was in outright saying “you shouldn’t be hyped” and all it did was spread negativity there (I don’t believe Nintendo is particularly problematic so this has some different nuance, it’s just an example of how this can spread negativity even when there’s a reasonable point, and it might hit harder for some of you since a lot of people like Nintendo here). For gods’ sake I still play Minecraft and I’m kind of ashamed of that, but at least I’m not doing it on Windows anymore. I decided that I would only buy the new DOOM game at a steep discount because I want that game so so badly but Microsoft owns Bethesda. For gods’ sakes I feel bad about using Steam because Valve is an American company. I decided that I will never ever visit America based on principal- the current administration want me dead and I will never forget that and I will never give my tourist money or energy to a country which had this presidency.

But if I boycott something like Steam I’m only going to make myself miserable and feel negative and spread negativity in my life. I gave up on my dream to visit America and that was something I wanted to do since I was a child, even through the pandemic and the problems the country evidently had then. I’m not saying that it just spreads negativity to have a discussion about allowing HP or not, and it’s wholly valid to be uncomfortable with people who like HP. I also don’t agree with the complete condemnation of people who are interested in it. Life is hard. Honestly where you put your money and what you allow is never that black or white imo. It goes back to my point of not letting perfect be the enemy of good. While I encourage a ban, we can take a warning label for a first step, even if we argue about a full ban I would hope most people would agree on that idea over nothing and this doesn’t have to be something that all happens in one swoop.

Honestly The Other Forum I Lurk has a big banner about the Microsoft situation at the top of every page but it’s kind of easier there since that forum outright allows political discussion and hell I don’t want to toss up if Bell Tree should allow that but it shows how this can get murky with topics too. However I think when it comes to HP that would be no excuse, standing up against Rowling’s hate is NOT inherently related to a political party or geopolitics, but a stand against hate in general.

For the record I only use Linux now so I’m a massive advocate against Micosoft, I think every space should loudly advertise what Microsoft is doing because Windows is a very widespread and integral product and more people should know what’s happening, I boycott HP and really don’t like it at all anymore, I even boycott Disney when I recognise the product is from them, there’s others I avoid when I recognise them, I am like Destani in being the kind of person to boycott as much as possible that I find morally objectionable or generally anti-consumer (like, there are some companies where I don’t buy their games because as silly as this is, they want me to use a separate launcher), I don’t know, I’d like to think I’m very in-tune with this, but none of us can be infallible with ethical consumption, and frankly I don’t think we can have a perfect solution here either, even as far as HP goes, someone is going to be upset with the decision no matter which way it swings. Once again I err on the side of agreeing there are plenty of other places to go for HP and it would be better off banned, but that’s just my PoV and as far as me arguing for that others did it on this page already.

Take whatever I say as you will as always.

Sheando out of respect for any boundaries I’ll not ping and simply say I’m so sorry that happened to you and just like with the mods it’s absolutely not okay. Can people just… not do this. Oh my god. I wasn’t joking when I said this is loser behaviour. All the people attacking are doing is making themselves look stupid and hurting people who can’t take it. Put your energy into things that you LIKE.

Edit: I just want to add- even something as simple as a thread marker above HP topics raises a couple of questions: should anyone be allowed to post HP threads or only mods who can actively add the warning? How would users be notified if they had the label added? In my opinion if you do this, the most graceful way would be allowing general users to post the topic but notifying them (not as a warning, just to spread consciousness). Then you need to moderate any potential response to notifications. At the end of the day as long as HP is allowed you’re going to have to moderate response to it. Also, I’m sorry if I diverged too much with my Microsoft example, part of me bringing it up is just my absolute hatred for them as a company (sorry for the actual virtue signalling, I’ll take the L if this deserves moderation or something), and some of it is that I genuinely wanted a comparison point for something where I would also like to draw a line but can understand why it’s not going to be a banned / controversial topic here. The complaints about Rowling are pretty cut and dry and once again not really political, just about general hate, as opposed to the case against Microsoft. Which should strengthen the case against HP.

 

[Sharksheep]

I understand it was not intended to be taken literally, but we need to think less about our intentions and more about the impact we're having on the people around us.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Maybe that's something you should reiterate to your fellow staff too

 

[Aerith]

What is TBT's stance on posts/content written by AI? It makes sense to ban it for events, but what about everyday conversation? I have seen several posts in the Gaming Discussion areas and Brewster's that I immediately flagged as AI (and also were read as AI by AI-detecting software) and it's quite disconcerting.

With AI images, you have the option to give people the benefit of the doubt in not knowing it was AI. But such isn't the case with AI writing (unless it's someone sharing fanfiction they didn't write themselves), as it's a deliberate choice.

I guess this might technically be a better question for the Information Desk, but I'm committed to making an argument against AI posts if I need to lol.