The Official Feedback Thread

[Saylor]

since there seems to be such a big divide here on whether certain posts were too aggressive/mean, and those accusations seem to mostly be coming from one side, I wanna be honest and say that I found some of the dismissiveness in this thread quite hurtful to read. people have come in here to state their genuine concerns about behavior from a staff member that they feel was inappropriate and/or predatory, on a forum where many of us have dealt with behavior like this from others, and were met with posts calling it a witch hunt and implications that we need to grow up, move on, and let it go. i find that quite rude. the same has happened with discussion surrounding the banned user--many of us have said we feel uncomfortable with how it feels like a certain member has been targeted by staff and that they were dealt with at such a speed that often isn't seen when it comes to handling bigotry on this forum, and those posts are often being dismissed as rude or aggressive as well

I keep seeing people say that members are divulging to them privately that they feel uncomfortable with how things are unfolding here and/or they're leaving the site (and this was something jeremy mentioned to the banned user as well), so I just wanted to say that this is happening on the other side of it too, people have said to me and in other chats that they find the dismissiveness uncomfortable and rude and so I think the characterization of one "side" of the discussion as hostile is a bit unfair

 

[Lancelot]

I don’t mean this to be rude, but I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again - if you’re not ready to discuss certain topics maybe don’t participate in a feedback thread

Like it’s wild that the staff can make SEVERAL innapropriate comments whilst a member gets banned for less, people want to address it and the takeaway is “but you didn’t say it nicely and I won’t elaborate”. I don’t see how that isn’t as rude, dismissive or inflammatory as anything anyone else has said in this thread.

Feedback isn’t inherently positive, and if you cant look at what people are saying and not how they’re saying it then a feedback thread is never going to work.

 

[Sharksheep]

Not speaking for anyone but myself here.

I also received pm msgs from people who were unhappy with the agressiveness of some members toward staff in this thread, and who were afraid to say anything here.

I think I got pm'd because of my response specifically about what i saw as an unfair 'witch hunt' toward a staff member, especially the nature of some of the comments, which I found very disturbing. Apparently, others also found them disturbing, but didn't feel comfortable saying so publicly.

I won't break any confidences, but it's sad to see good people leaving the forum, and I hope they return. If they do, I plan to return the collectibles/tbt they gave me before they left.

And some who pm'd me also had others pm them concerning what was seen as bullying/aggressive behavior (esp toward staff) in this thread.

Maybe as things calm down, people will return.

I'm sorry that you felt that it was a "unfair witch hunt" for calling out Chris' inappropriate behavior.

Staff members should be held to a higher standard and that means not censoring their names when calling out their behavior. I don't know why some people act as if staff members are paragons and saints and can do no wrong. An apology cannot magic away years of hurtful experiences. An apology is the first step not the last. The change in behavior or lack of is the proof of sincerely.

An apology doesn't mean anything when he later posted in "What I am happy about" basically hours later. Showing that he either didn't real the follow replies or chose to ignore them. He hasn't posted since then probably because either he or someone else told him that it wasn't a good look.

Part of the duties of being a staff member is moderating posts when they are rule breaking and having good communication. He failed to moderate his own posts failing by oversharing his personal life. Second is the extremely delayed apology for calling an art submission low effort. He continued to post on for forum on a near daily basis since February so I doubt an apology was even on his mind until I called him out on his inappropriate behavior which is something that should not be ignored and easily demised.

Quite frankly I'm disappointed in the rest of the staff team for not holding Chris accountable for his delayed apology since members have brought it up repeatedly since then.

 

[LambdaDelta]

Yes, we're still planning to discuss multiple topics that have come up over the past few weeks

 

[-Mars-]

I merely asked for clarification on who is being a bully in this thread because apparently certain users are being "overly aggressive" in this thread and I wondered who they are and if they happen to be users who are not afraid of sharing their thoughts and feelings on serious topics such as staff's inappropriate behavior because apparently it makes some users upset when we try and have these conversations and unless I'm misunderstanding people are leaving the forums because people are upset that we are trying to have conversations like these?

I did not try and deny that bullying on TBT is an issue that exists and that it shouldn't be addressed. Anyways you claim some users felt they were bullied out of this thread or maybe even off the forums and the bullies who did this should be addressed but it seems some people on TBT seem to be pleased that someone got banned and that they believe this user is "rude" and that "rude" people like them shouldn't be on the forums, I wonder if some people here believe that friends of this user or people that agree with the banned user should also be driven off the forums because they are perceived as "rude" and "bullies". You claim some of us are dividing the forum apart by speaking about issues that some users apparently disagree with and we are "rude" for speaking about these issues such as staff's inappropriate behavior and I know some users here seem to not like us who are speaking about these things and seem to want us to be silenced, are you guys not dividing the forum apart by having a bias against us?

Once again I will reiterate who is being a bully? My gut tells me you guys think it is Crash, Lumi, Saylor, Lancelot, rosetti or someone else along those lines who is being "overly aggressive" and "a bully" Do some of you guys not have a bias against us? Are we going to have the "rude tone" conversation again and the "nobody is listening to the topic at hand no matter how we try and discuss it" conversation again?

 

[BetsySundrop]

calling it a witch hunt

That was my post, so I'll try to explain.

The posts before that had brought up a concern re: a staff member's posts. Fair.

When said staff member posted an apology, along with an explanation and a plan moving forward (also fair), this was met with more aggression, imo, along with some statements that were very disturbing. Unfair.

Trying to be non-offensive here, sorry if i fail, but will try.

Spoiler: Details

If a person states their age 'preferences' but has a very CLEAR disclaimer of: providing everyone is consenting adults - that means what it says, consenting adults.

Imo it was extremely unfair and disturbing to then see members post that this person shouldn't be working with minors, that it is predatory, and they shouldn't be on staff. Very unfair.

I cannot imagine how difficult it must be to be in that person's shoes, having clearly stated only consenting adults, and now years later being labeled predatory and told to step down. Ridiculously unfair and extremely hurtful.

And the posts toward the staff member were aggressive and repetitive, and nothing the staff member could offer would satisfy anyone, the hurtful posts kept coming.

Spoiler: Forum subjects

If you treat it like an Easter egg hunt, you can find numerous (like, a lot) older posts speaking of uhm, subject matter people might rather not have on the forum.

I did some searching, and boy there's some interesting older posts. Some (esp staff) have been on this forum a long time. It's probably a much different forum today than it used to be. Some things posted in the past would never be posted today by the same people.

But these posts are in the past. If the feedback was - this type of post makes people uncomfortable, maybe we shouldn't have it on the forum. Fair.

But going after staff for older posts and then refusing to accept their sincere apologies, explanations, and willingness to change and move the forums forward - very unfair.

The main themes of people i heard from -

Nothing will satisfy the people who are angry, apologies are ignored.

Fear of speaking out and becoming a target themselves when they just want people to be less aggressive.

Imo, if there's a divide, it's in the way people are treating the sincere apologies that have been offered and the nature of the posts making demands of staff (like staff stepping down) or labeling staff a certain way (see first spoiler), or the general agressiveness. Just my 2 cents before i fall asleep.

 

[Lancelot]

That was my post, so I'll try to explain.

The posts before that had brought up a concern re: a staff member's posts. Fair.

When said staff member posted an apology, along with an explanation and a plan moving forward (also fair), this was met with more aggression, imo, along with some statements that were very disturbing. Unfair.

Trying to be non-offensive here, sorry if i fail, but will try.

Spoiler: Details

If a person states their age 'preferences' but has a very CLEAR disclaimer of: providing everyone is consenting adults - that means what it says, consenting adults.

Imo it was extremely unfair and disturbing to then see members post that this person shouldn't be working with minors, that it is predatory, and they shouldn't be on staff. Very unfair.

I cannot imagine how difficult it must be to be in that person's shoes, having clearly stated only consenting adults, and now years later being labeled predatory and told to step down. Ridiculously unfair and extremely hurtful.

And the posts toward the staff member were aggressive and repetitive, and nothing the staff member could offer would satisfy anyone, the hurtful posts kept coming.

Spoiler: Forum subjects

If you treat it like an Easter egg hunt, you can find numerous (like, a lot) older posts speaking of uhm, subject matter people might rather not have on the forum.

I did some searching, and boy there's some interesting older posts. Some (esp staff) have been on this forum a long time. It's probably a much different forum today than it used to be. Some things posted in the past would never be posted today by the same people.

But these posts are in the past. If the feedback was - this type of post makes people uncomfortable, maybe we shouldn't have it on the forum. Fair.

But going after staff for older posts and then refusing to accept their sincere apologies, explanations, and willingness to change and move the forums forward - very unfair.

The main themes of people i heard from -

Nothing will satisfy the people who are angry, apologies are ignored.

Fear of speaking out and becoming a target themselves when they just want people to be less aggressive.

Imo, if there's a divide, it's in the way people are treating the sincere apologies that have been offered and the nature of the posts making demands of staff (like staff stepping down) or labeling staff a certain way (see first spoiler), or the general agressiveness. Just my 2 cents before i fall asleep.

Let’s say I agreed with all of that, I’d then question why a staff member can make predatory/innapropriate comments and remain a staff member but a user says things that are perceived to be rude in a feedback thread and gets banned.

I really don’t understand how the takeaway from the Chris interaction is that we should all forgive and forget and not that there is such an enormous double standard on this forum.

If THAT many people are addressing several situations that have made them uncomfortable I guess I’d probably focus more on what they’re saying, not how they’re saying it. But maybe that’s just me

 

[BetsySundrop]

Anyways you claim some users felt they were bullied out of this thread or maybe even off the forums and the bullies who did this should be addressed but it seems some people on TBT seem to be pleased that someone got banned and that they believe this user is "rude" and that "rude" people like them shouldn't be on the forums, I wonder if some people here believe that friends of this user or people that agree with the banned user should also be driven off the forums because they are perceived as "rude" and "bullies".

I have no idea on what you are talking about here. The banned user wasn't the topic of discussion at all in my pms. I personally had no issues with the banned user, so i haven't offered any opinion on it. I don't know the full story, at all, and i don't want to know. I regard this as not my business. This had nothing to do with why people were upset.

You claim some of us are dividing the forum apart by speaking about issues that some users apparently disagree with and we are "rude" for speaking about these issues such as staff's inappropriate behavior and I know some users here seem to not like us who are speaking about these things and seem to want us to be silenced, are you guys not dividing the forum apart by having a bias against us?

No. I think it's very fair to speak up. I'm not biased against any person. I tried to address this in my previous post.

Once again I will reiterate who is being a bully? My gut tells me you guys think it is Crash, Lumi, Saylor, Lancelot, rosetti or someone else along those lines who is being "overly aggressive" and "a bully" Do some of you guys not have a bias against us? Are we going to have the "rude tone" conversation again and the "nobody is listening to the topic at hand no matter how we try and discuss it" conversation again?

I think it's different perspectives. I'm not bothered by rude tone, personally. I actually like some of the people you listed. (Not that i dislike anyone, i just don't know everyone).

What happens if you make a mistake? Or if you post something in the past that you would not post today? That's what I was addressing.

Several staff have posted sincere apologies, explanations, and outlined what they plan to change moving forward.

But it's never enough. Some accept it as a sincere effort to take responsibility and move forward, some don't. Maybe that's where part of the divide is?

One person who contacted me (and left) just did not want to be part of something that could become this way, so unforgiving and aggressive.

 

[LambdaDelta]

I'll speak for myself here (though I have the suspicion some users have similar thoughts on the matter), but I quite frankly do. not. care. about chris apologizing. especially when nothing shows me sincerity, and not necessity for it to be posted

and even if I was to entertain it as sincere, it still wouldn't change my stance that he should be removed from staff. imo, there are certain lines you do not ever cross as staff on a general access forum, and no amount of apologizing changes that he crossed that line, and several times, at that


and note, I'm not even saying to remove him from the community. that is a separate discussion, but staff removal at the bare minimum should be a no brainer

 

[BetsySundrop]

Let’s say I agreed with all of that, I’d then question why a staff member can make predatory/innapropriate comments and remain a staff member but a user says things that are perceived to be rude in a feedback thread and gets banned.

How was it predatory? The posts included "provided everyone is consenting adults".

Inappropriate? Sure. And that was fully and completely addressed.

And i will say that some, uhm, 'topics' have been discussed on this forum by plenty. If the consensus is that some topics should not appear on the forums, cool. Totally fair. But there will still be older posts that might have that topic that need to be dealt with. And if a topic is banned, maybe don't penalize people who posted about it in the past. Including staff.

 

[That Marshal Fangirl]

I did some searching, and boy there's some interesting older posts. Some (esp staff) have been on this forum a long time. It's probably a much different forum today than it used to be. Some things posted in the past would never be posted today by the same people.

But these posts are in the past. If the feedback was - this type of post makes people uncomfortable, maybe we shouldn't have it on the forum. Fair.

So unfortunately the problem with this is several members (including myself) have witnessed and even been direct victims of specific types of posts that were made by the same members at different points in time. The posts don’t stay in the past. They are repeated eventually. Some of said members have a long and detailed history of upsetting posts and show no signs of stopping, and without consequences if I may add. I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss the people complaining about the lack of accountability just because the posts being called out are in the past. Upsetting behavior has a tendency to be repeated, especially if the offender is in a position of power and/or subject to favoritism.

 

[Sharksheep]

That was my post, so I'll try to explain.

The posts before that had brought up a concern re: a staff member's posts. Fair.

When said staff member posted an apology, along with an explanation and a plan moving forward (also fair), this was met with more aggression, imo, along with some statements that were very disturbing. Unfair.

Trying to be non-offensive here, sorry if i fail, but will try.

Spoiler: Details

If a person states their age 'preferences' but has a very CLEAR disclaimer of: providing everyone is consenting adults - that means what it says, consenting adults.

Imo it was extremely unfair and disturbing to then see members post that this person shouldn't be working with minors, that it is predatory, and they shouldn't be on staff. Very unfair.

I cannot imagine how difficult it must be to be in that person's shoes, having clearly stated only consenting adults, and now years later being labeled predatory and told to step down. Ridiculously unfair and extremely hurtful.

And the posts toward the staff member were aggressive and repetitive, and nothing the staff member could offer would satisfy anyone, the hurtful posts kept coming.

So you have no issues with a child telling that the mister next door says they can go on a fancy date to at the fancy hotel restaurant when they turn 18 that's totally ok cause they will be a consenting adult right? 10-20 age gap isn't a big deal cause they are consenting adults right? That's totally an ok thing for them to talk about to their peers right cause it's ok cause they are consenting adults?

And it's totally ok to date people until you get what you want out them right? Cause that's your preference? It's totally ok to tell people to date people until you get what you want right?

Imo, if there's a divide, it's in the way people are treating the sincere apologies that have been offered and the nature of the posts making demands of staff (like staff stepping down) or labeling staff a certain way (see first spoiler), or the general agressiveness. Just my 2 cents before i fall asleep.

You don't get to decide whether or not someone should accept an apology. You don't get to decide whether or not a apology is sincere when you were not the one that was wrong. You are being rude, condescending, and dismissiveness with your 2 cents and quite frankly keep the change.

 

[LambdaDelta]

And i will say that some, uhm, 'topics' have been discussed on this forum by plenty. If the consensus is that some topics should not appear on the forums, cool. Totally fair. But there will still be older posts that might have that topic that need to be dealt with. And if a topic is banned, maybe don't penalize people who posted about it in the past. Including staff.

this is a real good way to handwave all harmful behavior away instead of actually addressing it

and yes, staff should be held to a higher standard than regular users, even if this means some hypocrisy in handling the actions of one over the other. one is in a position of power, and power should always be held to the fire

 

[BetsySundrop]

and even if I was to entertain it as sincere, it still wouldn't change my stance that he should be removed from staff. imo, there are certain lines you do not ever cross as staff on a general access forum, and no amount of apologizing changes that he crossed that line, and several times, at that

I like Chris. I've had a lot of fun in events hosted by chris, especially jackbox games, which at times has gotten some verry inappropriate (yet hilarious) responses by participating members.

I think if a subject is not appropriate for the forum, it should be not appropriate for everyone. Staff and members both. Put it in the rules, accept apologies from people, move forward.

I don't see why members should be able to discuss things, but it's crossing a line when staff does. Either is appropriate or is not.

Staff are people, too. They've apologized. Several staff. Sincerely.

 

[Sharksheep]

I think if a subject is not appropriate for the forum, it should be not appropriate for everyone. Staff and members both. Put it in the rules, accept apologies from people, move forward.

It was already in the rules. That's literally the point of this topic. Clearly you have read nothing.

 

[LambdaDelta]

I like Chris. I've had a lot of fun in events hosted by chris

spoilers: other people can host events as well. that is not an excuse for his behavior

Staff are people, too. They've apologized. Several staff. Sincerely.

we know this, how?

 

[Lancelot]

How was it predatory? The posts included "provided everyone is consenting adults".

Inappropriate? Sure. And that was fully and completely addressed.

And i will say that some, uhm, 'topics' have been discussed on this forum by plenty. If the consensus is that some topics should not appear on the forums, cool. Totally fair. But there will still be older posts that might have that topic that need to be dealt with. And if a topic is banned, maybe don't penalize people who posted about it in the past. Including staff.

Idk, I think saying you like “chasing” women until they sleep with you and then you become uninterested is pretty predatory, regardless of age, and an extremely inappropriate comment for someone in a position of power to have made. Especially when the position they hold is on a forum with children.

Chris themselves said they’re still relearning socially/how to say things and I personally don’t think that is someone who should be moderating a forum. You’re entitled to have your opinion and you accepting the apology is fine, but it seems so dismissive of others peoples experiences to say they should as well.

I know they weren’t “underage”, but if a teacher at my child’s school had made a comment like that I’d fully expect them to be put on leave till they sort themselves out - and from the sounds of the apology, Chris hasn’t fully done that yet.

 

[LambdaDelta]

accept apologies from people

sorry, but I don't think apologies have to be accepted. for any reason. ever

the perpetrator making an apology and doing good on it is one thing, but nobody ever owes it to them to accept it. that doesn't mean that an apology can't or should never be accepted, but that it should never be treated as a foregone conclusion

 

[BetsySundrop]

So you have no issues with a child telling that the mister next door says they can go on a fancy date to at the fancy hotel restaurant when they turn 18 that's totally ok cause they will be a consenting adult right? 10-20 age gap isn't a big deal cause they are consenting adults right? That's totally an ok thing for them to talk about to their peers right cause it's ok cause they are consenting adults?

You are serious? What consenting adults do is up to them. Age gaps are quite common.

And it's totally ok to date people until you get what you want out them right? Cause that's your preference? It's totally ok to tell people to date people until you get what you want right?

I wouldn't date that person.

You don't get to decide whether or not someone should accept an apology. You don't get to decide whether or not a apology is sincere when you were not the one that was wrong. You are being rude, condescending, and dismissiveness with your 2 cents and quite frankly keep the change.

Aaand here comes the pitchfork.
This is exactly the type of post i was pm'd about. Instead of addressing our different perspectives, you are calling me names (rude, condescending, etc) and being unkind.

I am only trying to show the perspective of people who were extremely bothered by some of this thread and asking that people speak calmly. There's no need to be mean. We just have different perspectives. I accept the apologies, you don't. Fair. We can agree to disagree. And we can do it calmly and kindly. There's no need to be rude.

this is a real good way to handwave all harmful behavior away instead of actually addressing it

But this is my point. It was addressed. Several staff members addressed the complaints/issues people had with them.

I'm not handwaving. I'm reading the staff responses that address everything. Whether people accept or not is entirely up to them. But be fair in the criticisms.

When you say "instead of actually addressing it" imo that's a bit unfair. They've apologized, explained, and stated how they expect to move forward. They've also said there will be more coming regarding further addressing things. So it's not like they aren't trying to address things.

 

[Javocado]

I like Chris. I've had a lot of fun in events hosted by chris, especially jackbox games, which at times has gotten some verry inappropriate (yet hilarious) responses by participating members.

I think if a subject is not appropriate for the forum, it should be not appropriate for everyone. Staff and members both. Put it in the rules, accept apologies from people, move forward.

I don't see why members should be able to discuss things, but it's crossing a line when staff does. Either is appropriate or is not.

Staff are people, too. They've apologized. Several staff. Sincerely.

You do realize that other staff can host events right?? Whether it be current staff or future staff. Chris is not the be-all and end-all. I know your memories of Jackbox games sound very glamorous, but it’ll be okay I promise!! And to address your other point, I’ve never seen members discussing the weirdo things that Chris has stated publicly and even if they did it would still be wrong, but coming from a staff member who is one of the pillars of this forum that’s crumbling at the moment, it’s even more inappropriate because they need to be held to a higher standard.