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RE: what’s with this whole gender identity thing? Gender pronouns, ect?

KnoxUK

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Thank you Oblivia for reaching out to me and providing some interesting sources, I’ve been reading through them :)

On the link, sexual orientation, paragraph 2 ‘Gender identity’ is quote

Gender identity​

One's innermost concept of self as male, female, a blend of both or neither – how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. One's gender identity can be the same or different from their sex assigned at birth.

And you quote: Gender identity is in no way a "perspective".

May I ask Oblivia, what is it then? When I ask what is your perspective on it. It means on how do you perceive the subject, I want to learn different view points, from many lovely people. It’s an interesting topic.
 
I'm just gonna say real quick before you maybe continue this any% thread lock speedrun that even speaking in strict biological terms, it's still not a full on black and white male or female sex for the human populace

both gender identity and biological sex are far more nuanced than that
 
Could you elaborate LambdaDelta. From my understanding from a biological perspective the gender male has the chromosome X Y and the female has X X. There are no other combinations. I don’t understand on what you mean it being more nuanced. Are you referring to gender identity?
 
Could you elaborate LambdaDelta. From my understanding from a biological perspective the gender male has the chromosome X Y and the female has X X. There are no other combinations. I don’t understand on what you mean it being more nuanced. Are you referring to gender identity?

As a bio researcher, there are actually many different combinations, not just those! For instance, many people perceived as "male" may have an extra X chromosome that ends up not being expressed (or even more than that), etc.
Higher numbers of X chromosomes are not necessarily fatal because they can condense into Barr bodies, inhibiting expression. You can research more into that if you would like, but many times people go their whole lives without even knowing that they have a different chromosomal layout.

Gender itself isn't locked. Mushrooms actually have something like thousands of different combinations of "genders." The underlying rule of biology is that there are always exceptions, and the truth is far more complex (and, as a result, more interesting, too). The gender binary is initially taught to simplify things for people being introduced to biology, much like how mathematical concepts are simplified.
 
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Could you elaborate LambdaDelta. From my understanding from a biological perspective the gender male has the chromosome X Y and the female has X X. There are no other combinations. I don’t understand on what you mean it being more nuanced. Are you referring to gender identity?
there are plenty of other combinations, "male = xy and female = xx" is fourth grade level. there are "biological females" with xy and vise versa, plus intersex people exist.

i'd recommend doing your own research on "your understandings" before posting anymore 'cause they're very outdated and harmful
 
The guy's just trying to understand, people. No reason to get touchy.
 
The guy's just trying to understand, people. No reason to get touchy.

Their previous thread on the topic was written with more than a little bit of a snide tone (inferring gender identity politics is only amongst young people, asking if they’re doing it “for attention”, etc) and that makes it difficult to believe they’re coming from a place of good faith. If they receive a bit of attitude in other people’s responses in return, well, you get what you give. 🤷‍♂️

The responses here so far do not seem particularly touchy to me, for the record.
 
I’m just going to pop in and with all respect say a couple of things:

There have been multiple cultures with more than 2 genders, and as others have pointed out, sexes are more complicated than xx/xy.

Interjecting a fun fact, did you know male calicos are so rare because they have xxy chromosomes? In calicos the color pattern is tied to the chromosomes.

To quote a favorite YouTuber of mine, nobody goes “technically, you aren’t the biological parents” to foster parents, and instead we respect their responsibility. I can’t remember the exact wording, so I might be making it sound a bit more strawmanny, but it’s the best analogy I’ve found. And it doesn’t erase that the biological parents are out there and maybe something medical could come up or something, but foster parents are raising their kids as parents and living that life. Someone who transitions is living a different life, and anything medical is their business, the same way we wouldn’t butt in on the biology of foster parents.

Also, if someone physically transitions (beyond physical presentation/clothing/chest binding/etc), a lot of their biology changes. I don’t know how true it is, but I’ve heard people say that they started having certain things be more in common medically with the gender they transitioned to. Like supposedly, their doctors would treat certain things much closer to the way they would in the gender they transitioned to. I’ll just leave that as a point of research, but regardless there are obvious and super visible physical changes.

It doesn’t override your sex. I wouldn’t argue (and I don’t think people should argue) that it totally erases it, even if you go the whole nine miles with a physical transition. But really, if someone did that then they’ve taken on the responsibility of tackling their dysphoria and changing their body and presenting how they want. That’s worth respect. And even if they aren’t physically transitioning, they deserve the respect. They’re confronting their feelings and how they want to present and a level of dysphoria. It’s a simple thing to address someone by their desired pronouns (anyone who’s instantly angry if they’re misgendered on accident probably has anger issues anyway, no disrespect to my fellow transfolk, that stereotype is a strawman- and anyway, intentionally misgendering people would make anyone look silly).

Personally I just accept any pronouns because I’m not expecting to keep everyone, or even my boyfriend to keep up to date with my desired pronouns at any given moment. Sometimes I can be totally convinced that I want to transition and a couple hours later want to embrace my assigned gender, and sometimes I feel like I’m agender, and sometimes I oscillate over minutes. As for how I recognise that or where I draw the lines- or why I am this way- well, that’s honestly too personal for me to share here.

Ultimately, people don’t stick with this for attention (and of course there are fringe cases, but there are with everything and the issue isn’t trans-ness itself, let’s just not). It isn’t easy, life as a transperson comes with a lot of disadvantages due to how society responds, general identity confusion and medical care for it, and the dysphoria that leads to this is not a choice.

edit: see seliph’s post two below this for minor corrections (which i agree with)
 
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As someone who believed in the traditional definition of gender, even I agree that nobody is 100% male or 100% female. The xx and xy chromosomes only determine the hormones and sex organs.

For instance, aside to the reproductive systems, some differences women had to men were thinner eyebrows, longer legs, and higher-pitched voices. If these differences determine if someone is masculine or feminine, then some men are more feminine than others, and some women are more masculine than others. That, and gender stereotypes may apply to people of the opposite gender in a binary system too. Like the girl would be interested into sports and is a huge fan of eating meats, or the guy likes pink and loves to go shopping. That’s why there’s multiple different genders. The sex may be one thing, but society is littered with gender stereotypes and gendered double standards. There’s no way one person could fit all standards of society.
 
I’m just going to pop in and with all respect say a couple of things:

There have been multiple cultures with more than 2 genders, and as others have pointed out, sexes are more complicated than xx/xy.

Interjecting a fun fact, did you know male calicos are so rare because they have xxy chromosomes? In calicos the color pattern is tied to the chromosomes.

To quote a favorite YouTuber of mine, nobody goes “technically, you aren’t the biological parents” to foster parents, and instead we respect their responsibility. I can’t remember the exact wording, so I might be making it sound a bit more strawmanny, but it’s the best analogy I’ve found. And it doesn’t erase that the biological parents are out there and maybe something medical could come up or something, but foster parents are raising their kids as parents and living that life. Someone who transitions is living a different life, and anything medical is their business, the same way we wouldn’t butt in on the biology of foster parents.

Also, if someone physically transitions (beyond physical presentation/clothing/chest binding/etc), a lot of their biology changes. I don’t know how true it is, but I’ve heard people say that they started having certain things be more in common medically with the gender they transitioned to. Like supposedly, their doctors would treat certain things much closer to the way they would in the gender they transitioned to. I’ll just leave that as a point of research, but regardless there are obvious and super visible physical changes.

It doesn’t override your sex. I wouldn’t argue (and I don’t think people should argue) that it totally erases it, even if you go the whole nine miles with a physical transition. But really, if someone did that then they’ve taken on the responsibility of tackling their dysphoria and changing their body and presenting how they want. That’s worth respect. And even if they aren’t physically transitioning, they deserve the respect. They’re confronting their feelings and how they want to present and a level of dysphoria. It’s a simple thing to address someone by their desired pronouns (anyone who’s instantly angry if they’re misgendered on accident probably has anger issues anyway, no disrespect to my fellow transfolk, that stereotype is a strawman- and anyway, intentionally misgendering people would make anyone look silly).

Personally I just accept any pronouns because I’m not expecting to keep everyone, or even my boyfriend to keep up to date with my desired pronouns at any given moment. Sometimes I can be totally convinced that I want to transition and a couple hours later want to embrace my assigned gender, and sometimes I feel like I’m agender, and sometimes I oscillate over minutes. As for how I recognise that or where I draw the lines- or why I am this way- well, that’s honestly too personal for me to share here.

Ultimately, people don’t stick with this for attention (and of course there are fringe cases, but there are with everything and the issue isn’t trans-ness itself, let’s just not). It isn’t easy, life as a transperson comes with a lot of disadvantages due to how society responds, general identity confusion and medical care for it, and the dysphoria that leads to this is not a choice.
i'm gonna interject with a couple nitpicks that i don't necessarily think you were trying to say but i think they're very important to address with anyone new to transness:

1. not all trans people experience dysphoria - when you break (body) dysphoria down, a lot of it comes to a very western idea of gender/gender roles and "ideal" gendered traits - "manly broad shoulders", "feminine hips", and so on. not all cultures have this sort of system, and even some of us who were born and raised into it could be raised with different ideas of what traits are "masculine" and "feminine". aside from that, a lot of us trans people have successfully de-gendered our minds and no longer associate any biological traits with particular genders because it just isn't necessary as biology constantly shows us it isn't inherent.

2. "anyone who’s instantly angry if they’re misgendered on accident probably has anger issues anyway ... that stereotype is a strawman" as much as cis people love to Make Up A Trans Person To Get Mad At, it does happen every once in a blue moon and that doesn't necessarily mean they have anything wrong with them. they could just be a tired trans person who's sick of being misgendered and frankly it's totally understandable if they're annoyed by it, we shouldn't be gendering strangers anyways. if you don't want a hypothetical trans person to hypothetically go off at you for misgendering them, start using gender neutral terms for strangers until you know what they want to be called.
 
^ yeah that’s all fair. And frustrated days happen anyway, I thought that might go without saying but for such a touchy subject I probably could have articulated that part better, I’m going through **** myself lately. I have a lot of dysphoria myself so I was honestly just focused on that point of view but yr right, sadly I haven’t hit that point yet. (If ever, I wish I could be more amorphous altogether but don’t a lot of us lol)
 
1. not all trans people experience dysphoria - when you break (body) dysphoria down, a lot of it comes to a very western idea of gender/gender roles and "ideal" gendered traits - "manly broad shoulders", "feminine hips", and so on. not all cultures have this sort of system, and even some of us who were born and raised into it could be raised with different ideas of what traits are "masculine" and "feminine". aside from that, a lot of us trans people have successfully de-gendered our minds and no longer associate any biological traits with particular genders because it just isn't necessary as biology constantly shows us it isn't inherent.
I definitely relate to this, I'm trans-masc but I honestly don't actually experience much dysphoria at all (aside from my chest, but in all fairness I had a problem with that long before I learned I was trans). I don't have any interest in changing my body or my voice or other things to fit gender stereotypes, I'm just me and that's it, and I'm very content with that. I tell you guys I'm trans-masc and I use he/him pronouns, and that's the end of it 😌 even if I look or present myself in a "feminine" way, I'm still a trans guy. there's no debating there.
 
^ yeah that’s all fair. And frustrated days happen anyway, I thought that might go without saying but for such a touchy subject I probably could have articulated that part better, I’m going through **** myself lately. I have a lot of dysphoria myself so I was honestly just focused on that point of view but yr right, sadly I haven’t hit that point yet. (If ever, I wish I could be more amorphous altogether but don’t a lot of us lol)
it took me a while to get here, i've got 10+ years under my belt. it's hard especially when you're more fluid and/or still figuring yourself out, i gotchu.
 
I definitely relate to this, I'm trans-masc but I honestly don't actually experience much dysphoria at all (aside from my chest, but in all fairness I had a problem with that long before I learned I was trans). I don't have any interest in changing my body or my voice or other things to fit gender stereotypes, I'm just me and that's it, and I'm very content with that. I tell you guys I'm trans-masc and I use he/him pronouns, and that's the end of it 😌 even if I look or present myself in a "feminine" way, I'm still a trans guy. there's no debating there.
Honestly I kinda get this sometimes with my boyfriend! I mean just being my gender regardless of presentation/body. He gets it. And sammeee on the chest thing… some days I love it so it’s wild. When I was a kid I was so sure I wanted to make it smaller but that changed. And yet somedays I still just want it flat. Thing is with this stuff my only experience honestly admitting to my genderfluidness has been online, with my boyfriend (who is online as well but at least we vc) and with my psychologist and disability support. Whenever I go to the doctor they have pride and gender inclusivity posters up and very noticeable, so at least irl I have that, and ngl it made going to the doctor’s a bit of a better experience for me even if I’m not reaching out there about it.

You know what’s funny for me clothing isn’t really a gendered thing and yet I still feel like I would be able to express my gender better with certain clothes- it probably just has to do with how I want to express myself in general though regardless of gender and I’m still wrestling with it. Honestly, I always had thoughts about my gender but it’s only last year I actually embraced it so up to that point I only have haphazard exploration of it.
 
Honestly I kinda get this sometimes with my boyfriend! I mean just being my gender regardless of presentation/body. He gets it. And sammeee on the chest thing… some days I love it so it’s wild. When I was a kid I was so sure I wanted to make it smaller but that changed. And yet somedays I still just want it flat. Thing is with this stuff my only experience honestly admitting to my genderfluidness has been online, with my boyfriend (who is online as well but at least we vc) and with my psychologist and disability support. Whenever I go to the doctor they have pride and gender inclusivity posters up and very noticeable, so at least irl I have that, and ngl it made going to the doctor’s a bit of a better experience for me even if I’m not reaching out there about it.

You know what’s funny for me clothing isn’t really a gendered thing and yet I still feel like I would be able to express my gender better with certain clothes- it probably just has to do with how I want to express myself in general though regardless of gender and I’m still wrestling with it. Honestly, I always had thoughts about my gender but it’s only last year I actually embraced it so up to that point I only have haphazard exploration of it.
for me it's constantly like, I really hate my chest and I feel a lot of envy when I see people who do have a flat chest hsjfbsjfb I'm obv not genderfluid but I feel like that probably does make the experience of chest dysphoria a lot more interesting 😅

and yeah I get the feeling that clothes aren't gendered, I just wear whatever I like to express myself. it actually bothers me that clothes *are* so gendered in western society. I feel like people should be able to wear what they want in order to express themselves and be happy and confident in themselves. 😊 I usually present very androgynously, though I tend to look more traditionally "feminine" than "masculine". I actually take some pride in dressing effeminately and then wearing my he/him pin hehe 💙
 
Perception and perspective are two different things.

I perceive the subject to be exactly what it is. If you’re looking for my personal perspective on “what’s with this whole gender identity thing” or whether I think young people are trying to be “quirky” or “looking for attention” by exploring their gender identity or sexuality, I think it’s more that society has become more accepting over the past 5ish years and thus more people are comfortable exploring and embracing who they are, which is a good thing. I’m not the proper person to educate on trans and LGBTQA+ perspectives seeing as I’m nothing more than an ally, but I’m glad others have stepped in with useful info for you.

Again, although I’d love to believe this and your original thread were made due to genuine curiosity, the way things were phrased didn’t lend that impression. This also isn’t the first time you’ve stated and subsequently doubled down with a very against-the-grain viewpoint.

I’ll leave this open for now since there’s some positive discussion taking place, but I have to agree that doing your own research would probably be the best course of action moving forward.
 
I do have one question about gender identity, and it’s not about the transgender or nonbinary people. It’s about the others.

If society is starting to become more accepting of trans identity, then why are there still people who aren’t? What are the transphobes trying to defend? What are the transphobes afraid of?
 
I just want to make a little addendum to my last posts as well about the dysphoria part- there’s an assumption about certain things that they’re just caused by trauma and anyone interested must have been traumatised at some point etc. which can be harmful if other people assume those mean the person was just unhealthy and had a bad or misled or invalid idea. I think that can also happen with the whole idea that being trans must come from something like that or some severe dysphoria, as if it’s less valid over it, I’d just like to apologise again and put that thought out. (There’s also an entire tangent I could start about mental ableism and excluding people who don’t fit in easily or have extreme troubles, I damn well know this as someone with C-PTSD, but it’s outside the scope of this post.) Point being gender can be something with wrestle with, but it doesn’t mean the person is unhealthy, or had some other problem leading to the realisation. (Personally I think, generally, people with unhealthy habits or thinking patterns need help rather than exclusion anyway- alluding to that ableism, which again is outside the scope of this.) I’m obviously not the best person to explain that sensation but I think I get it. Was sorta focused on myself with the dysphoria part. I’ll just leave it there because admittedly I’m adding this kinda tireeddddd but I feel I have a point in here somewhere
 
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