The Official Feedback Thread

[-Mars-]

Jeremy you honestly kind of sound like people who tried defending my groomer on another online game(in which you can draw images) who enjoyed exposing extremely inappropriate disgusting sexual and fetish images of animals to minors and people tried to justify him by saying "I think it's fine for these kinds of images to be drawn on here since most people on here are older teens or adults anyways" and "People should grow up and mature if they can't handle this kind of content" when this game is catered towards minors and there's minors as young as age six who play the game. The groomer was a well-known person in the community and was respected by a lot of people who tried justifying his actions(a lot of them were groomed into believing his actions were okay) and it was extremely difficult for a lot of people to speak up about him due to him being older and having influence over the community and it was really difficult for the community to get him out and see a change from this.

But maybe you aren't and I shouldn't make these associations with my own personal experiences of people trying to say sexual content is fine because most people in the community are adults anyways and ignore minors safety

Anyways, is Jeremy and staff intentionally trying to get people to leave their site because of the environment they are creating which is predatory, racist, homophobic, transphobic etc. and therefore not a good place for minors, women/AFAB people, POC and the LGBTQ+ community? Because you guys are doing a damn good job of it, how many people have left because of you now? It's almost impressive how you've managed to upset so many people at once. I'm glad minors here are looking out for their well-being and trying to find better and safer places to hang out in than The Bell Tree Forums and that parents are safeguarding their children by making sure they don't come to this community.

 

[fairysyndrome]

I'm going to clarify something here, and I also would like to address @Jeremy as well about a separate thing.

First of all, because of a discussion I had a few months ago that some members decided to label as homophobic, I am gonna assume that is being talked about here in this quote and if not, well because of the accusations that were thrown then, I guess according to some members... this description could be applied so here I am posting.
The old thread can be read here for anyone who wishes to review actual details of the convo. https://www.belltreeforums.com/threads/whats-your-current-opinion-on-this-site.635789/

And as a side note I will not be replying to any members. So think about that before trying that out.

i'm not willing to debate you in a thread where we are trying to address problems seriously, nightglow, especially if you're trying to forcibly maintain the upper ground by throwing in that little side note of "I won't reply, so think about that before trying that out," but i will 1. confirm this was in reference to you and 2. note that your insistence on devil's advocating for religious homophobia has been vaguely referenced as an example of recent homophobia on-site multiple times throughout this thread in its entirety for good reason. linking the thread itself does not in fact help your case, especially as there were several members who told you at that time this rhetoric is harmful & their posts are just as visible as yours are. i think they - and tiffanistarr in this thread - have said everything that needs to be said on the topic. it was labelled as homophobic because it was homophobic, and the fact that nothing had ever been done to address that does in fact say a lot about how this site is willing to manage itself while patting itself on the back for allowing LGBT+ discussion at all.

And once again, after suggesting a few times already, I would also like to insist considering raising the minimum age of the forum to 18. It doesn't solve everything obviously, but it does help soothe some concerns/avoid some issues. And yes a forum, this forum, is separate from -> Nintendo and their individual games <- which is arguably targeted towards children vs just people and some people even suggesting in general gaming communities on the internet in general, that the targeted audiences are young adults more so than minors anyway. But what needs to be considered for the forum age restriction is the content allowed on the forum rather than if such and such game or gaming company is targeting children in their audiences or not. So, yes, raising the minimum age to 18 to be a member on this forum is very reasonable route to take.

also, this is a terrible idea and doing so would completely sidestep any and all concerns the members have about appropriate conduct if the staff even considers entertaining it. there are quite literally minors on this site right now and in this thread. what would raising the age limit to 18+ do for them? force them out of a community that is already presenting itself as unwelcome due to the owner's unwillingness to protect them and what they are exposed to? why in any sense of anything would an Animal Crossing forum need to be 18+?

Are these "discussions of sex" actually a thing happening? I find it hard to believe staff would allow 18+ topics along the lines of "what condoms do you guys like", to go with what I think the least-NSFW example would be. I don't know if this qualifies for "encouraging rule breaking" but such that I can actually understand the situation fully, what is the "discussion of sex" that seems to happening and how widespread is it actually?

we've touched upon this many times in this thread, but the particular posts / discussions users are referring to in this case are primarily a staff member discussing his sex life on multiple occasions a few years past. 'tisn't appropriate. though the conversation has evolved into a general discussion of the lack of appropriateness at 18+ discussion being allowed on a 13+ site, that's what this conversation stemmed from.

 

[BetsySundrop]

Ok i really have to address this clearly.

implies that LGBTQ+ is sexual content / sexual material (since they seem to have an issue with these not being the same) —gender identity or romantic/sexual orientation is not inherently sexual and for users like this to perpetuate this notion is harmful.

No, this was not what i said or implied.

I actually specified that the content in question could possibly be found within those threads, not that those threads in and of themselves were sexual content.

I had said way earlier that i did not think chris's posts (regarding the age preference, not the bed one) did not fit the definition of sexual materials because of intent (that particular post was only speaking of preferences, so in my mind was not sexual material).

Someone else equated preferences to sexual materials, not me.

I also stated, more than once, that the materials/content might be found "within a larger discussion that was not sexual".

Nowhere did i say that the larger discussion was inherently sexual.

To be extremely clear -
-I am straight/ lesbian - identity, not sexual

-I like women/ men - not sexual, preferences
(Imo. However, someone else equated this to sexual material and later someone called for a blanket ban of sexual material/ content, which would stop discussion at this stage, which was the point i was trying to address.)

-I like/do not like/ am /am not attracted to breasts, ankles, etc - subjective, probably depends who you ask

-I will/will not/ have/ have not go to bed with, have sex with, etc, such and such type person in whatever circumstances. - well now it's getting into sexual content, and is similar to Chris's post that people were very upset about.

- the sexual content is found within a larger discussion that is not inherently sexual.

- My entire point was in response to those who equated the terms and called for a blanket ban. It was very obvious to me that if such rules were put in place, the result would be an unintentional limitation of (imo) completely fine discussions, especially in the threads that have preferences as core subjects.

This is why when i was asked what i would think was ok, i said the threads regarding identity/ preferences, and why I was upset people kept leaving off preferences and assuming I was the one who equated the terms and called for a ban. I did not. I was only trying to point out where that would ultimately end up, and I stated that I was against it.

I hope this at least somewhat clears things up, and I apologize if I was unclear. I should have referred back to previous posts.

There was also another discussion about age gaps. I regarded age gaps as a preference discussion, not a sexual content discussion because again, imo preferences do not inherently equate to sexual content -unless - they are extremely specific/graphic, or you regard them as sexual material, which i did not.

I hope this helps clarify.

 

[. Rarity .]

I wasn't going to say anything more but there's so many problematic points here that I don't exactly know where to start. But Im just gonna speak my mind cause Im offended, and these are really triggering.
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Like many of the other members have said, there are many kids who use this website, kids also lie about their ages to log onto websites, all they have to do is change their birthday. If a series is something children centred, or has something that kids like, then of course a child is going to check it out. So when your saying that this website is just for 15+ your not thinking about how sneaky kids can be. This website isn't even centred around anything bad, it's an Animal Crossing themed form, so it appeals to all ages.

So a user who's profile says they're in their twenties, could actually be ten. Or vice versa, a profile which says they are eleven, they could actually be forty in real life. It's super easy to lie so you don't get in trouble. I don't really know if you, the mods, would do anything if you found out a person here was an eight year old.

Like Roxxy, and few others said, if I saw that sexual content was allowed on a website like this, then I wouldn't allow my kid to use it.
So don't use the ages as guidelines for the site. It's useless. In my freaking Danganronpa group, I came across so many angsty nine year olds you have no idea. So yes, re-design your website so it's less appealing to little kids. Then maybe you'll get somewhere with that goal.
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Neopets handles sexual content better, and they have probably like a million members. Even though it's a website for both adults, and kids it still does not allow any sexual, or other offensive content on it at all. Even if a pet has an offensive name, your username implies something they will message you, and if it's a pet name, you'll be forced to make a new one. So you don't have to talk about a sexual fantasy to get a warning, anything remotely sexual is prohibited.

Neopets doesn't have anything against Homosexuality, or LGBTQ in general, it's under the "What is allowed" part of the rules. So they don't count it as sexual, and it's just something that's there. You can decorate, and do anything you want in profiles centered around LGBTQ. All in all, Homosexuality is just another form of love. You can express it however you want too.

I feel like you guys should do the same thing, because just like Neopets, TBT was still a fun, safe place to be at with the relief of not having any form of sexual content allowed. I mean it's perfectly reasonable, and it's what the majority of us here want.

On with Neopets about Homosexuality, just to be something that is welcomed, is what you guys should do too. Take it straight out of the sexual section, just say it's welcomed. It's just another form of love, another form of how people see each other. Absolutely nothing about it is sexual.
___

When the members here first pointed out homosexuality was being combined with only sex, it immediately reminded me of how homosexual movies are rated as 14a even if they have no sexual content. It could be a perfectly safe PG romance movie between two people, but just because those people, or even if a background couple does so much as KISS then it's considered 14a. It's like the conspiracy theory that I saw about My Little Pony no longer being for kids because Hasbro confirmed two same sex ponies love each other

Homosexuality is just apart of what makes someone who they are. it's like a person's hair colour, if their born blonde, and wanna dye it pink it's their choice. If someone is is born one sex, and attracted to the same sex its just another aspect of themselves. It's just something apart of who people are.

Me being a lesbian , doesn't mean Im sexually driven, it's just apart of me. That's all. I find girls attractive, like how I like my hair brown. Its who I am. Pride month is just a celebration of what makes people beautiful for who they are.

The fact that it is under the sexual spectrum almost seems like you guys are worried what homosexual content people will post. If I post a fanfiction about Marshal, and Kid Cat being romantic is that against the rules? If they kiss will I get a warning? For me that's coming across as the reason why you put it under the sexual spectrum.

If so, that's one of the reasons many here have considered this statement being Homophobic, transphobic ect.
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The banned user , wasn't a bad guy, I didn't know him well, we never really spoke, I only really saw him around. But he always seemed nice, one of the most active users in this community, and it's honestly sad not to see him around anymore. It's heart lifting to see how many of us have spoke up, and echoed for him about how he was treated. It really shows how much us members really care about each other.

So he was banned because he came across as rude? Well I have been keeping an eye on this thread and none of his responses came across as aggressive to me. None of the members who spoke here come across as aggressive. It's a feedback thread, we're simply agreeing or disagreeing. Just like how he was, in all the posts I read from him in this thread, he was being reasonable, and not defensive. So I agree that the banning was unfair.
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Sniping of one of Jeremy's posts. It personally hurt me alot.

Freedom of speech was not welcomed here, which is awful. You didn't want to hear our actual opinions, not everyone is gonna talk in a sunshine happy sense. I am not. Heck, half of the people right now are probably packing their bags, or are planning on writing out more valid points.

From all of our dedication, and love we members deserved so much more.

 

[daringred_]

this is definitely going to fall on deaf ears, but i would like to say that as the affected party in the exchange that initially had seliph banned, it makes me extremely uncomfortable that it was used as a scapegoat and a "final straw" to then abruptly ban them for a year. (and scapegoated me by extension, because it wasn't until i clarified offsite, and a mod later verified, that people knew i didn't even report him.) yes, i found his responses rude and felt uncomfortable, but even if i'd had an ounce of faith in the moderation of this site and reported him, i would’ve expected a warning at most. even a week's ban feels a little much, but to then use it as a stepping stone for a year? obviously i don't know if anyone else reported him or if the staff just saw it as a good excuse to finally ban him, but it feels weird that my opinion on this has absolutely zero bearing and has gone completely ignored when i was the recipient of the posts, not anyone else, especially when there's literally a bigot heavily active on here who i've had muted practically since i joined because of said bigotry. one rule for me, another for thee, truly.

 

[a potato]

I used to think of TBT as a great place to have a like-minded community. Sure, there were a few weird situations every now and then, but the community always seemed to come through. I made an amazing friendship on here over 11 years ago, and we are extremely close to this day. I have some great memories of getting villagers and friendly interaction that made the site seem very welcoming.
Yet here we are, providing solicited feedback to no avail as the fire burns brighter. After taking some time to reread the various statements made over the past few weeks, I regret recommending this website to friends. I would not want anyone to join this community in its current state. I've tried time and time again to provide direct, specific feedback as requested, but alas. All we have is sympathy for all the wrong things the community is asking for.

 

[MrBox]

It's quite sad to see how things have turned out.

I'm sure the staff is frustrated themselves and have no hope that the community will accept any apologies/explanations they give. To be honest, I'm sure people who aren't even on the staff team are thinking something along the lines of "Oh, it doesn't matter what you say, nothing will be satisfactory or make them happy!!!! So why bother!!!"

But... people are rightfully skeptical. There is no reason to believe that the staff's attitude and prejudice is going to change, especially .. how things have been going in this thread. It definitely won't change overnight but as others have mentioned, they've been waiting for changes to happen and they just.. get ignored. Or dismissed. (What was up with the staff saying "I'm sure all of you guys are unhappy that your friend got banned :^( But we're not going to change our minds." ?! That was so weird. Jeremy saying that discussions of sex being allowed on TBT is soo weird too.)

I do understand that the staff is in a difficult position at the moment. Probably not sure what to do and regretting even making the "The Official Feedback Thread". haha.

>Off topic note but I wanted to mention it earlier:

It’s hard to write a sincere apology about something when you find it difficult to emotionally connect to it. I regret that I didn’t handle it at the time, but I also don’t think anything I would have wrote then would have been deemed satisfactory. I did not have the capability at the time to do so.

I'm actually glad that you didn't write an apology post then, Chris. If you could not emotionally connect to it , your post would've reflected that. And then you would've made the same mistakes again and the cycle continues.

Everyone is different but if you had even understood a little bit, written an apology post about the backtracking and sincerely didn't mean to degrade sleepey's artwork or the medium when the Valentines Day thing was happening in real time, I personally would've been satisfied with it. Not that it's up to me to accept it or anything. Just talking as someone who was posting in that thread.

Even if you couldn't emotionally connect to it though, it was just weird. I think if you weren't constantly posting in the "What's Bothering You?" thread, it might've been looked a bit better for you. But it's easy to say what could have been! It's too late now and who knows maybe I'm wrong, maybe people still would've criticized you.
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Anyways, I haven't been active on this site for that long but I'm sure these "series of heated arguments / the community ""struggling"" with feedback" isn't new and isn't the staff's first rodeo. I have a feeling that it will continue to cycle and the inflexibility, favoritism and tyrannical abuse of power is here to stay and is TBT's trademark traits.
I really really do want to believe that the staff will be less defensive and stop abusing their power and status over time.

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Edit (*edited again for clarification):
Also *in reference to Jeremy's update about how discussion about the topic of sex isn't prohibited on TBT- in what world would it ever be appropriate to have a discussion about sex on TBT? There is no way on earth that I think the staff would have even let that slide unless people were talking about it in an educational sense. Even then, what would be acceptable???
If there are instances on the site currently that the staff does approve of, I'd love to see some examples because I am truly baffled by the idea of it. I truly do not think that the staff would normally let talks of sex slide and rather is said with the intentions to defend the staff and some members who were defending staff. So really, I'd love to see examples. The only example I can think of is that one thread that was comparing dock sizes from NH.

The rules of using profanity on this site is so strict that I thought this site WAS a family friendly site.

Someone reported a comic that I made during the Farewell to NL event because it had an obscured curse word in it. It took me about five minutes to scan the comic intensively to find out why I even got the warning. And even then, I tried to talk to the staff about it- saying it was a mistake and they said they could not reverse the warning as it was "not a punishment".
But then there are people cussing on the site??? I was so confused by the rules about the forum censor.
Anyways. Pointless babbling.

 

[oath2order]

I do think that one problem with the seliph ban is that there is a large public outcry about the ban.

Everyone has said that it isn't a friend group trying to get seliph unbanned, which is fine, that's what y'all are saying and so I'll roll with that.

But y'all do get that if the ban is reversed there is absolutely going to be a public perception of "if a user is popular enough and enough people claim the ban is unjust, the staff will bend to the will of the people", right? Like, that may not actually be the case, but it still will have the appearance of it.

 

[Crash]

-

 

[LambdaDelta]

But y'all do get that if the ban is reversed there is absolutely going to be a public perception of "if a user is popular enough and enough people claim the ban is unjust, the staff will bend to the will of the people", right? Like, that may not actually be the case, but it still will have the appearance of it.

and the appearance right now is of catering to a small group of people that simply desired seliph to be gone because they didn't like the percieved tone of his posts, instead of enforcing their rules fairly across the board. what of it?

legit don't bring up "appearances" when they already ****ed that over for themselves

 

[Doo]

This thread is too much for me but I couldn’t leave this. Crash quoted me and then said this:

YOU GOT WHAT YOU WANTED. seliph got banned, which is what you've wanted for eons.

I’m not sure it was actually directed at me but all the same, I didn’t want seliph banned. I don’t know a lot about them, I haven’t read the posts or the ban message so I can’t say much about it. But that’s not me saying I think it’s good or okay that they were banned. I don’t know what happened. But I absolutely did not and don’t want them banned, especially considering what daringred has said in this thread recently. I just wanted to clear that up. I have nothing against seliph.

I’m sorry if I’ve upset anyone.

 

[themysterybidder]

I already posted early on in this thread, but things have changed and I would like to add more.

Previous post - https://www.belltreeforums.com/threads/the-official-feedback-thread.635901/post-10884571

Spoiler: Sexual content

Personally, I don’t think any content relating to sex should be discussed on TBT. I’m sure there are many forums on the internet if you want to discuss that in a suitable setting. A PG-13 forum is not that place. I think rules MUST be updated on this matter. I am a member of another forum where everyone are adults, well they claim to be and I have no reason to believe otherwise, as the subject would be probably considered boring to many youngsters! Even on that forum there is no mention by members regarding sex in any way, even though the rules are very relaxed.

What can be done about this?

I do believe this is sweeping the matter under the carpet instead of proper change, but if rules are going to be more lax here because the majority of members are adults, I want to try and help minors from seeing inappropriate posts. I also realise that it doesn’t help what’s been posted already and some members are minors who are currently members. I don’t know if any of this is even possible, but I would suggest that to view any content, you must be a member.

During the registration, have an age bracket available to select from. I know people can fib about their age, but if they can’t see topics before the register, I feel potential members are less likely to lie about their age as they will think it is basically an Animal Crossing forum.

If someone chooses e.g. 13-18, then certain boards will be hidden from them until they hit whatever age is the limit. We could have an Over 18s section, only available to members of over that age bracket, and a separate board for minors. It would maybe be good for Over 18s aswell who don’t want to read that type of content, myself included. Again, I don’t know if that’s even possible, but I want to try and help the site change for the better.

Spoiler: Moderators

I still agree with my previous opinion on inactive moderators. I don’t have an issue with staff who don’t post a lot, as they may be focusing on things behind the scenes.

Spoiler: Accountability

I’m not friends with the banned user, but I do believe the ban was inappropriate, especially as it’s been said previously others have done worse and are still allowed to post. I don’t know the full details and about alleged past violations, but something that left a particularly bitter taste for me approximately 3 months ago was when the site owner called him out in public posts. To me, that was as if they were wanting a reaction and looking for an excuse to finalise a ban, I could be wrong. No members should be treated like that by a staff member, no matter what the circumstances are. A present Staff Member has posted inappropriately on an PG-13 forum and with no consequences, that I’m aware of even when many members have expressed their concerns. Moving to a different role instead of moderating doesn’t sit well with me, as they will still be interacting on the forum. In no way am I saying for this member to leave the forum and never to return, but a complete step away from the forum may be beneficial for all. It also didn’t sit well with me that the staff member then removed content.

Spoiler: Staff as volunteers

I appreciate all staff and the time they take out of their personal lives to host events and bring fun to the community. It’s often mentioned that staff are volunteers and don’t get paid. I agree with this 100%, however, my next opinion may well go down like a lead balloon with staff and members, but it’s been bugging me, I’m just going to write it anway. It’s important to remember, regular members who become staff have agreed to this! I would expect they would be well informed of their staff roles within the community before accepting the position, and would hope they would realise they are role models to all members, not just minors. I would like to believe that members joined the staff to try and make TBT the best it can be, but for months I’ve been struggling to see it. It’s been a while since this thread has been opened, I know it’s difficult to keep up-to-date due to the level of posts even for me, a regular member, so I can only imagine how hard for staff to keep up and I appreciate that significant change will take time.

Spoiler: Account deletions

On the subject of requesting deletion of accounts because it can disrupt the flow of posts. I don’t agree with that, I know it’s part of the rules we accept when we join unless a member has 12 or less posts then it would be considered. This is a genuine question, for example, say 3 or 4 members make several posts to each other in a thread that have to be deleted that amount to over 12 posts, surely that would disrupt the flow? If it’s a debate like this members can miss deleted posts and then not understand what members are referring to and how the thread has changed direction!

Spoiler: Cooldown

4 hours is far too long, I think 1-2 hours is long enough.

Spoiler: Staff Updates

Would it be possible for staff updates in the highlights section to be updated, as it’s not be updated for a while now!

Spoiler: Final thoughts

Before I end this post, I want to say I know I’m not a long term member, just over 3 years now! However, TBT has helped me through so much as I’ve mentioned several times before. I am sincerely grateful for all the lovely members I have spoke to here and the friends I have found. The events hosted by staff have taken my mind of real life sadness. It’s sad to see and read that so many familiar members who have left or thinking of leaving. Change needs to happen on TBT otherwise the numbers will continue to dwindle. It’s important to remember the members who are posting in this thread care about the site and that’s why I think some are thinking comments are rude I truly believe it’s because they feel so passionate and only want things to change for the better! I don’t want to be posting in any fun threads at this point due to no accountability from staff, not because of any responses by members. I’m also hearing that friends are falling out if they don’t agree with each other, and that really saddens me. Everyone has their opinion, but friendship should be respected no matter how you feel regarding all issues brought to the surface in this thread. I’m sure no-one will really bother whether I’m here or not! However, I do hope that at some point others and myself feel comfortable to come back. I’m still checking in this thread hoping for some actual updates and my profile as I don’t want to think I’m ignoring any members! It just doesn’t feel right to be posting in fun threads when serious concerns are very present. I’ve probably forgotten some things, but for now, take care everyone.

 

[FrostyAlmonds]

My little disclaimer that I have not read through the whole thread and I am in debate if I want to make a full on post when I do or just say this one thing and leave it at that because it feels like a waste of time to sit and organize my thoughts when all legitimate criticism and concern seems like it's falling on deaf ears.

My feedback to staff. Please, take the time to have a discussion of who you want to cater to and who TBT is a safe space for.

In it's current state,

It's not safe for minors- you seem confused about age ratings, casual talk about sex in any manor is not pg 13, it's an 18+ (or I believe 16+ in some countries, but regardless, not for 13 year olds which this site welcomes) topic. If you allow 13+ users to join, it's targeted to kids/teens no matter how you feel. There is a reason why so many communities (think discord servers, other forums), that allow 13+ have a designated adult only (18+) space for this kind of talk, otherwise servers are very strict about their platform either being 18+ or no sexual talk period. Saying that you are okay with 'respectful and mature discussions about sex' here because we have more adult members is just a gateway for pedophiles and groomers to prey on minors.

It's not safe for the LGBT+ community- I am hearing about too many instances of tolerating and not removing bigoted comments because 'x reason isn't said in a bigoted way so it's okay to post'. IDK sounds exactly like 'I don't mean to be offensive but *enter offensive comment here* A bigoted comment is bigoted, plain and simple. If they weren't aware what they said was bigoted and apologize immediately after when told it was, sure, honest mistake. But if someone says something blatantly homophobic/transphobic and doubles down on it?? No thanks, that's just hiding their bigotry behind an excuse. And FYI, claiming 'sexual identity is sexual content' is exactly the excuse a homophobe would use to shut out any talks about homosexuality. absolutely no one was talking about sexual identity and it was randomly thrown into the sexual material debate as something we needed a rule on???? Why. Why throw this into the conversation?

It's not safe for women/AFAB individuals- I've seen a comment in the past from a user, that is still very active here mind you, about how woman with specific hair colours should be dressing, tbh IDK if the post was ever dealt with by staff, but again, that user is still here, and worse off, apparently this is far from the only and worst thing they've said, which includes doing a very misogynistic act towards members of this very forum.

It's not safe for people of colour- I can't speak in proper because I've never seen any racist material here myself, but I have been told that there were cases of racism/white supremacy in the past without the users receiving any punishment so I think it's important to highlight it.

Defending bigotry with 'neurodiversity is not a good look- (and leaning on ablest/negatively stereotyping any non neurotypical member) In reference to this rule.

Finally, there is the last group, who are largely unaware that the content they post is harmful. This can be a one-off scenario or it can happen repeatedly. For reasons such as mental illness, neurodivergence, or other hidden disabilities, those who repeat this behavior tend to struggle with the complex social reasoning behind why something is offensive. That is not to say that everyone who falls into those categories has the same difficulties. We know that many of you can identify with one or more of these traits while still recognizing a harmful statement. But not everyone’s experiences are the same and turning our backs on these members for something that is often beyond their control feels wrong and not in the spirit of inclusivity.

BIGOTRY =/= NEUORDIVERGENCY, the latter is not a scapegoat for the former, and I truly hope the staff can discern the difference between them because it's not a fine line either. The thing above with the misogynistic user? Yeah, that is NOT OKAY TO HIDE BEHIND NEURODIVERSITY.

CTS threads seem like a roulette if they will even get a result, and we aren't even allowed to correct problematic comments in fear of 'being too mean' re Seliph's ban so....????? We are just supposed to take it that these individuals are allowed to run around and run this forum and say the most obscene things and that's that?

If you insist on keeping problematic users around on this forum anyway there are two actions you can take to keep TBT safer. One, just, give us the block feature. The safety of members should be a priority above some hurt feelings from members. We should have every right to block someone from viewing our profile/following/interacting in any way who makes us uncomfortable, no questions asked. Two, monitor these individuals. I'm not sure if this forum is capable of it, but I know there are some forums where you can flag users to where their posts have to be reviewed/accepted by a mod before it is visible to members. Basically, it's your responsibility to keep this a safe community as mods. Just letting someone run around and say problematic things ad nauseum and make it our problem to deal with (and by deal with I mean just try to ignore because we have no course of action) is not making TBT a safe space.

IDK sorry if this goes on 50 different tangents and it doesn't make sense or I just say the same thing over and over, along the way, I do not excel in coherent writing. My tldr is basically just the bold stuff.

I'm also gonna have one side note about the hypocrisy that some users were saying people were being too mean to Betsy and Chris when......this is the dogpiling that got Seliph banned. Just pointing it out because a user in this thread kinda exposed that there was some mutual desire/organized effort by a few members to get him banned. So if you think people were being mean but were also cheering for the ban, you might want to reflect a little bit.

 

[Aurita]

I had said way earlier that i did not think chris's posts (regarding the age preference, not the bed one) did not fit the definition of sexual materials because of intent (that particular post was only speaking of preferences, so in my mind was not sexual material).

first of all, I think you need to go back and see what that post actually stated. the “bed one” and the “age one” are within the same post.

My entire point was in response to those who equated the terms and called for a blanket ban. It was very obvious to me that if such rules were put in place, the result would be an unintentional limitation of (imo) completely fine discussions, especially in the threads that have preferences as core subjects.

This is why when i was asked what i would think was ok, i said the threads regarding identity/ preferences, and why I was upset people kept leaving off preferences and assuming I was the one who equated the terms and called for a ban. I did not. I was only trying to point out where that would ultimately end up, and I stated that I was against it.

Betsy, you’re the only one that I can see that is continuously putting identity within sexual content.

yes, I agree talking about genitals or other body parts in a sexual manner should not be allowed.

In discussion of identity/preferences, it can be a natural part of the conversation to discuss why/ why not attraction occurs, what motivates the attraction, the physical aspects vs other aspects.

however, you keep stating that a blanket ban on sexual content will affect “identity/preference” discussion. It won’t. Just full stop. These aren’t considered sexual content or material or whatever word you want to nitpick with.

No one is disagreeing that talking about body parts in a sexual matter should be banned—but that you keep putting “identity/preference” within these contexts.

People are leaving gender identity & sexual orientation out because they are NOT sexual content and do not need to be dragged into this ban.

There are so many ways to discuss attraction, gender identity, sexual orientation in non-sexual manners so why do you keep focusing on this aspect?

people would have to be careful about what words they used in discussions that may not be sexual in nature, but may end up including what is defined as sexual content.

That is the point. this would allow for discussions but ban the posts that would potentially turn the discussion into sexual content.

I feel like nobody is actually reading my posts.

I feel like you’re not reading any of our posts or if you are, you may need to reread them.

 

[-Mars-]

Ok i really have to address this clearly.



No, this was not what i said or implied.

I actually specified that the content in question could possibly be found within those threads, not that those threads in and of themselves were sexual content.

I had said way earlier that i did not think chris's posts (regarding the age preference, not the bed one) did not fit the definition of sexual materials because of intent (that particular post was only speaking of preferences, so in my mind was not sexual material).

Someone else equated preferences to sexual materials, not me.

I also stated, more than once, that the materials/content might be found "within a larger discussion that was not sexual".

Nowhere did i say that the larger discussion was inherently sexual.

To be extremely clear -
-I am straight/ lesbian - identity, not sexual

-I like women/ men - not sexual, preferences
(Imo. However, someone else equated this to sexual material and later someone called for a blanket ban of sexual material/ content, which would stop discussion at this stage, which was the point i was trying to address.)

-I like/do not like/ am /am not attracted to breasts, ankles, etc - subjective, probably depends who you ask

-I will/will not/ have/ have not go to bed with, have sex with, etc, such and such type person in whatever circumstances. - well now it's getting into sexual content, and is similar to Chris's post that people were very upset about.

- the sexual content is found within a larger discussion that is not inherently sexual.

- My entire point was in response to those who equated the terms and called for a blanket ban. It was very obvious to me that if such rules were put in place, the result would be an unintentional limitation of (imo) completely fine discussions, especially in the threads that have preferences as core subjects.

This is why when i was asked what i would think was ok, i said the threads regarding identity/ preferences, and why I was upset people kept leaving off preferences and assuming I was the one who equated the terms and called for a ban. I did not. I was only trying to point out where that would ultimately end up, and I stated that I was against it.

I hope this at least somewhat clears things up, and I apologize if I was unclear. I should have referred back to previous posts.

There was also another discussion about age gaps. I regarded age gaps as a preference discussion, not a sexual content discussion because again, imo preferences do not inherently equate to sexual content -unless - they are extremely specific/graphic, or you regard them as sexual material, which i did not.

I hope this helps clarify.

Hey Betsy can we maybe consider not doing this again today(or ever) maybe consider?

Is this sincerely the hill you are willing to die on?

 

[-Apples-]

I feel that all CTS threads should be replied to at least once by a staff member to discuss an issue. But how should we solve the problem?

My suggestion is that they should have more staff members. The new cast can take care of the moderation duties and solve the issues, while the current cast can work on their responses. This is not to say that they should promote me, but we really need more mods.

 

[MrBox]

i'm not trying to jump down either of your throats either, just for the record, but i feel some context may be getting lost here and i think it's important to be clear on why we've gotten to this point.

Ahh! My apologies, I should have clarified.
In my post, I said, "Also in what world would there ever be a discussion about sex on TBT?" in response to Jeremy's update saying that discussions of sex is not strictly prohibited on TBT. I apologize if it came across as if it were me shaking my fist at the sky saying "those darn tbt members!! making up stories!! no ones talking about sex around these parts!! there's no war in basingsae on the bell tree forums dot com" No, no. Definitely not!!

I know Chris has apologized but the posts that I saw were terrible and definitely falls under sexual material/content.

 

[Halloqueen]

I do think that one problem with the seliph ban is that there is a large public outcry about the ban.

Everyone has said that it isn't a friend group trying to get seliph unbanned, which is fine, that's what y'all are saying and so I'll roll with that.

But y'all do get that if the ban is reversed there is absolutely going to be a public perception of "if a user is popular enough and enough people claim the ban is unjust, the staff will bend to the will of the people", right? Like, that may not actually be the case, but it still will have the appearance of it.

I wasn't planning to post in this thread, but...

What public is going to remain to form this perception? All 20 or so of us regulars who haven't left yet? People have been and will continue to pour toward the exits as the vibes continuously diminish, friends and acquaintances depart, and the community crumbles. If we've thought the forum population has felt low the past few years compared to the New Leaf days and during New Horizons' launch era, we ain't seen nothin' yet.

I joined back in 2015 to adopt villagers and get in-game items. So long as there's still a market where people provide such services, I'll probably still be around here. If there's even a here this time next year.

I recognize the unenviable position of the Staff to have to confront this mountain of issues that need addressing and that there's a desire to really iron things out before presenting them to the community. I also recognize that the Staff have lives like anyone else and that it's an unpaid, passion project sort of thing.

But man. Xara said it: 28 days.

Sorry, you know me, I had to .


The perfect is the enemy of the good. Every day that things go unaddressed, the angrier people will become. Every day, more people leave, some permanently. Those that remain are tearing each other apart and social cohesion is eroded. LadyDestani mentioned a while back that she had been working on longform responses to things but realized that it might be more prudent to make smaller, separate points to try to work through it faster. I'd encourage this course of action before you don't have anyone left to whom you can provide these meticulously crafted responses. Will it be messy? You betcha. But 42 pages in, there's already a mess.

Even if you do that, though, it's hard not to feel that fatal damage isn't already done.

I can't speak for seliph and how he feels about his whole situation since I don't know him. What I do know is that if I were in his shoes, banned for a year, I'd understandably feel unwanted, not even desire to return, and just move on with my life. The arbitrary extension of the ban to a year is wack. Regardless of whether members frustrated about his ban are friends with him or are just concerned citizens who find his punishment unjust, community trust has very clearly been breached. For my part, he and I weren't "friends" such that he's friends with other members, but I've always found him to be insightful, smart, and a valuable member of the community whose presence and input were great to see. We had few, limited interactions, but we were cordial, as I try to be with everyone. His arbitrary absence is a bummer. Whether his ban is reversed or not, the year-long duration has already soured public opinion.

On the flipside, regarding the Chris-tuation, wherever anyone falls on his past actions, posts, apology, etc. I don't foresee a future where this doesn't ultimately end with eventual full removal from the Staff. What does a sabbatical from the forums solve, really? It's not like we forum members know each other in real life and can see and gauge the effects of therapy, soul searching, and the like with our own eyes. There is a contingent who want him removed from these positions, and shifting over to Project Staff, while something, reads as shoving it under the rug and waiting things out. I don't think that's going to work. Situational context aside, on a base human level, I can sympathize with Chris in that I did stuff when I was a teen that I'm not proud of and wish desperately I could undo. I learned from my mistakes and those lessons helped forge me into who I am today; I am ashamed of my past self, but if there's any good to come from it, it's that it made me more thoughtful of my actions. I can only wish well for Chris on his own journey of self-improvement and accountability henceforth. But as it pertains to the forums, unless literally everyone who is uncomfortable with his position abandons ship first, there will always be some level of discomfort permeating, both toward him and the Staff at large. I can't speak for Chris, but if I were in his shoes and was kept on as Project Staff but had this community distrust toward me, it would wear me down eventually, I'd lose motivation to want to attend the forums and help with events, and I'd leave eventually anyway.

From a Staff perspective as well, I can understand that it might feel like throwing him under the bus after years of service, some sort of betrayal of a colleague, and sabotaging yourselves in terms of providing sufficient moderation and event manpower in a time where the community is also crying out for better moderation practices and complaining of Staff not being able to address concerns in a timely manner/at all. If there's anyone remaining, or who has left but would be willing to return, who sees the site worth salvaging after all the damage so far, I'd say it might call for community members to step up and be the change they want to see as new Staff. As it stands, I don't see how we even have events moving into the future; currently seems like we'd be lucky to fill a single cabin for Camp Bell Tree compared to the four cabins/teams for past events. Hell, I don't even know what we're going to talk about since a ton of the regulars who make discussion threads have departed.

 

[oath2order]

you do realize that this has literally not one thing to do with popularity, right? have you read any of the thread at all? there is a large public outcry because seliph has been directly targeted by the forum owner on multiple occasions and is now facing what is most likely a permanent ban because staff does not like him. we are not "claiming" the ban is unjust; it is unjust, and again, the proof is in this very thread. not sure why some people insist on coming in here, reading the last five posts or so, and then forming an opinion without concern for context or history. there are a million well thought out and well written posts in here that go into detail about this situation.

I have read a good chunk of the thread. Yes, I do understand it has nothing to do with popularity. As I believe I clearly stated in my post, I said this was the public perception of the situation, not the actual reality of it. As we all know, public perception and what reality is are two very different things.

Given the nature of the thread being an ongoing feedback thread, I think it's wholly unreasonable to expect people to re-read the entire thread anyways.

I wasn't planning to post in this thread, but...

What public is going to remain to form this perception? All 20 or so of us regulars who haven't left yet? People have been and will continue to pour toward the exits as the vibes continuously diminish, friends and acquaintances depart, and the community crumbles. If we've thought the forum population has felt low the past few years compared to the New Leaf days and during New Horizons' launch era, we ain't seen nothin' yet.

Honestly I wish I could answer this but I can't see how many weekly active users there are.

 

[sakuraa]

I’m probably gonna try and make a more detailed response later (cause i JUST caught up with everything and i’m tired), but this thread went in SUCH a bad direction, and lowkey it’s kindaaaaa on the mods :/

also Seliph shouldn’t have been banned. no ifs. no buts. just the cold, hard damn truth.