I would fully support a ban on discussing 18+ topics (e.g. "mature and resepctful dsicussions about sex", as Jeremy said). Echoing what others have said, even if the average age of users is 30+, if we're going to allow users under 18 to join we have a responsibility to ensure this is a safe space for them, even if they are the minority. We should also keep in mind that kids younger than 13 could lie about their age in order to join (I have seen this happen before on this forum). There is no reason why adults need to discuss sex on an Animal Crossing forum, in my opinion.
The Official Feedback Thread
- Thread starter Jeremy
- Start date
BungoTheElf
Senior Member
Before the 13+ rule was added, I joined this site when I was 11, never mind the fact that people can lie about their age on websites and that you don't need an account to view the website... Luckily, I've had a good experience with users and content on this site growing up, but I can't say the same for everyone.
This isn't an 18+ community, and as you said, times have changed, so I feel like now is a better time than ever to protect minors from picking up harmful ideas now that the internet is as big and at the forefront of our lives as ever. Especially as the internet only gets worse and worse, I think disallowing these kinds of harmful ideas expressed would help tbt to be a safer space for young people. It doesn't sit right with me that open discussion of 18+ topics should be allowed just because a majority of users are adults- I would heavily reconsider the rules on this. Especially for a site on Animal Crossing of all things!!!! If people want proper mature discussions, they can bring it elsewhere- literally almost anywhere else.
I know I don't post a whole ton but imo 4 hours for the cooldown seems a bit much, 2 hours might be good though.
Even if it's expressed in a tone you don't agree with, I've only ever seen seliph share takes that make tbt a safer place for many groups. I'm not happy with the current results of the banning considering what other users get away with on this site, so I hope it is worth reading when your next post comes out. I've literally grown up on this site. I'd like to see it do better.
This isn't an 18+ community, and as you said, times have changed, so I feel like now is a better time than ever to protect minors from picking up harmful ideas now that the internet is as big and at the forefront of our lives as ever. Especially as the internet only gets worse and worse, I think disallowing these kinds of harmful ideas expressed would help tbt to be a safer space for young people. It doesn't sit right with me that open discussion of 18+ topics should be allowed just because a majority of users are adults- I would heavily reconsider the rules on this. Especially for a site on Animal Crossing of all things!!!! If people want proper mature discussions, they can bring it elsewhere- literally almost anywhere else.
I know I don't post a whole ton but imo 4 hours for the cooldown seems a bit much, 2 hours might be good though.
Even if it's expressed in a tone you don't agree with, I've only ever seen seliph share takes that make tbt a safer place for many groups. I'm not happy with the current results of the banning considering what other users get away with on this site, so I hope it is worth reading when your next post comes out. I've literally grown up on this site. I'd like to see it do better.
Oh…. no. Going to refrain from commenting on anything except this stance, as I feel it is a very irresponsible one to come out with as the site owner. When you boil it down I think the main issue here is that you are viewing everything through the lens of: “kids are choosing to interact in a community that includes a lot of adults, so they need to be conscientious and aware of that”, when you should be viewing it as: “adults are choosing to interact in a community that includes kids, so they need to be conscientious and aware of that”. We are the adults, the onus for keeping the forum safe for the kids that visit it is ours. It doesn’t matter if there are more of us than there are of them. Is there not a reason profanity is disallowed on the forum, despite its being used “primarily by adults”?
This is why I always have my age displayed, as I was already an adult even when I joined 10 years ago, and I wanted the younger users to be aware of who they were interacting with, even in something as simple as a trade in Animal Crossing, so if they were uncomfortable with interacting with an adult they could look at my age and say “hm maybe not”. That’s the type of cognizance I expect from EVERY adult on this forum, not just the staff members. What we choose to post, say, how we choose to interact here should be done with the fact that there are literal minors present in mind, always. I have seen users as young as 9 here (obviously in that case the user in question broke the rules by falsifying their age which they should not have done, but regardless they were still here and active on the boards). There are other social media sites to use as an adult without the concern of your content/behavior being viewed by children. TBT just shouldn’t be treated like one, in my opinion.
Jeremy, that is a disappointing wall post which at best acknowledges that something happened yesterday but does not address homophobic rhetoric which some members shared. while tbt may have been one of the first ac forums to accept (tolerate) LGBT+ discussion/people, it is now being cemented as the first ac forum to accept bigotry through silence and inaction.
shark said it best:
my final feedback request, please give us the option to delete our accounts.
shark said it best:
my final feedback request, please give us the option to delete our accounts.
nightglow
An apology forpointingoutthewhy was stated longago
I'm going to clarify something here, and I also would like to address @Jeremy as well about a separate thing.
First of all, because of a discussion I had a few months ago that some members decided to label as homophobic, I am gonna assume that is being talked about here in this quote and if not, well because of the accusations that were thrown then, I guess according to some members... this description could be applied so here I am posting.
The old thread can be read here for anyone who wishes to review actual details of the convo. https://www.belltreeforums.com/threads/whats-your-current-opinion-on-this-site.635789/
No where did I say homophobia was ok or understandable if it is based in religion. I was explaining why on the internet why one thing may be flagged by mods while another may not be. Such as believing or choosing whatever parameters for yourself as individual or a group for whatever union and sharing that in a conversation that may be on the topic of discussing preferences for partners but not randomly just to intentionally hurt people or troll.
If a person believes, as an example given in that convo which wasn't given by me, "I believe marriage is a sacred ceremony of love that can only be shared between a man and a woman" in some religious circles, that is something they decided for themselves and it isn't necessarily about gay marriages. It is a parameter for themselves and historically was often pointed at as being against polygamy... Which the statement in an of itself isn't about that, but rather about parameters for themselves anyway.
And as said, I was willing to talk about other religions and unions too, such as what can be found in Wicca about unions because reality is it is about setting and deciding parameters for yourself about all aspects of life and no one is forced to be a part of that at all and people have the freedom to also change their life choices.. but no instead people wanted to focus in on one religion and sit there and go as far as calling a whole group of people who reads and learns from a particular religious text as hypocrites because of diet (which is waay off topic anyway) without even acknowledging what is in the text later in the book anyway.
Just as the example above isn't homophobic itself, neither is the belief of a upmost holy union is between a woman and a woman in some Wiccan circles isn't anti heterosexuality nor man hating. And of course just as the other example, it doesn't have to be applied to "you" or by "you".. and frankly has nothing to do with "you" as an individual.
But people can close thier eyes and say and think what they want and can continue to label me whatever.
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Now, Jeremy.. due to not receiving any acknowledge message in my email of you receiving my departure letter, I would like to have some sort of confirmation that you have received it. It was sent through the contact us link. I do understand it will take time (perhaps months) to actually reply to my letter, if you or the staff decides to at all, and the concerns described there. But I would also like to mention that at some point I would like an official reply to my departure letter sent to my email, because I would like some replies on stuff and I am still very much open to discussion. I also understand the staff has their plate very full right now as well, so hopefully this isn't felt as rushing staff, which isn't my intention.
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And once again, after suggesting a few times already, I would also like to insist considering raising the minimum age of the forum to 18. It doesn't solve everything obviously, but it does help soothe some concerns/avoid some issues. And yes a forum, this forum, is separate from -> Nintendo and their individual games <- which is arguably targeted towards children vs just people and some people even suggesting in general gaming communities on the internet in general, that the targeted audiences are young adults more so than minors anyway. But what needs to be considered for the forum age restriction is the content allowed on the forum rather than if such and such game or gaming company is targeting children in their audiences or not. So, yes, raising the minimum age to 18 to be a member on this forum is very reasonable route to take.
I also want to thank staff for adding the polygamy flag ( I suggested adding months ago) and co exist flag and if I was active I would be using many of the wonderful banners that were made for diversity month, and I wish I had the chance to do that, but the forum is very dysfunctional and unwelcoming right now about many things and in many ways.
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And as a side note I will not be replying to any members. So think about that before trying that out.
oath2order
#Porygon2024
Okay so I do have to ask tho.
Obviously I haven't posted much in recent times, anyone who sees my post history knows that.
Are these "discussions of sex" actually a thing happening? I find it hard to believe staff would allow 18+ topics along the lines of "what condoms do you guys like", to go with what I think the least-NSFW example would be. I don't know if this qualifies for "encouraging rule breaking" but such that I can actually understand the situation fully, what is the "discussion of sex" that seems to happening and how widespread is it actually?
Obviously I haven't posted much in recent times, anyone who sees my post history knows that.
Are these "discussions of sex" actually a thing happening? I find it hard to believe staff would allow 18+ topics along the lines of "what condoms do you guys like", to go with what I think the least-NSFW example would be. I don't know if this qualifies for "encouraging rule breaking" but such that I can actually understand the situation fully, what is the "discussion of sex" that seems to happening and how widespread is it actually?
To clarify the context I was referring to, this was stated before the argument started:
And further expanded to:
(Emphasis mine.) Sexual preferences were then discussed broadly, which led to these accusations.
LGBTQ+ encompasses sexual orientation in addition to romantic orientation and gender identity. For example, this year's pride backdrop includes both demiromantic and demisexual variants. As you mentioned, it is harmful to perpetuate the idea that LGBTQ+ people are inappropriate by nature, and this seems to be the point that the accused user was trying to make by refuting such a loose interpretation of the prohibited content rule.
And to reiterate a point I was making about this, because I believe it may have been interpreted backwards: LGBTQ+ is not sexual material, which is why it would never be disallowed by this rule (or any rule).
I will touch on this topic more in my next post here.
(And many other posts that touched on this.)
To clarify a bit, my comparison to the 2013/2014 posts was to point out how the community has changed the way it approaches this topic. A lot of this content would certainly not be allowed now, and some of it may not have been allowed at the time. Regarding the way in which the specific rule is enforced now, I shared examples of warnings that addressed this rule in more recent years.
A lot of the feedback we are hearing today is the wish for the forum to align closer to PG or G ratings rather than PG-13. This is valid feedback, and we are not necessarily opposed to carefully reining in some of these topics, but there are other things worth considering that may make this less simple than the way it is being framed. Also, please stop taking my statement about the average age out of context. As a mixed-age community, it's reasonable to compare to others such as Facebook, TikTok, Discord, Twitter, etc. My point is simply that the topic of "Animal Crossing" does not make us a website targeted at kids more than these others. In fact, the opposite is likely true. Secondly, safety for younger readers/members is something we take seriously, and we have made changes to address this as recently as March of this year.
I'm not going to tag the user, but these quotes:
implies that LGBTQ+ is sexual content / sexual material (since they seem to have an issue with these not being the same) —gender identity or romantic/sexual orientation is not inherently sexual and for users like this to perpetuate this notion is harmful. There is already enough incorrect and inflammatory rhetoric on other sites conflating LGBTQ+ with sexual abuse and you would think a site centered on a game that is rated E for everyone and PEGI 3 (ages 3+) would disallow such notions.
I have seen misogynistic, racist, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic posts and I joined the site in 2020. While I really appreciate this year's pride backdrops (special thanks to Mistreil), it feels like "rainbow capitalism" as bigotry seems to slide by while criticism of said bigotry is heavily scrutinized.
There have been several users (not seliph) who have made some problematic posts AND have receive repeated warnings...yet I still see them continuing to post here. As will pointed out, I would also like to see this new standard that members (and staff) should be abide by.
I don't think the forum needs to be PG or G and absolutely not 18+, but I think it's unreasonable to compare this forum to social media like Facebook, TikTok, Twitter, etc; even discounting that majority of these platforms have special policies in place for minors (esp. those under 16). Moms here have mentioned that they would not feel safe letting their children on this site—a site, again, catered for a game catered to all ages.
If a child was in a room full of 30 year olds, the 30 year olds are responsible and accountable on keeping the child safe. The child should not have to circumvent the adults to feel safe.
Respectfully, I disagree with this perspective. I think a parent would be more likely to allow their child to sign up for a forum about a video game played by kids than Facebook or Twitter. Personally, I was allowed to join a video game forum at age 9, but I was not allowed to join any social media sites until I was 16.
(Note: I wrote this post at 1:00 PM and had to wait for my cooldown to expire to post it, so apologies if this point has already been made since then)
-Apples-
Apple Imperialist
I agree here. In fact, there’s several hints showing that this site appeals more to adults, even if it weren’t for the adult content (and by adult content, I mean everything that aren’t suitable for kids, including discussions of alcohol). As you see, kids tend to play the same games differently than adults do. In general, they are more interested in getting the items and villagers they find to be cool. While we TBTers care more about completion and good town design, which takes cues from playing online, learning tips and tricks, and others, something kids under the age of 13 are usually hardly capable of. If you went to a town that doesn’t even look like Animal Crossing, but some other intricate game, where the Museum is complete, where patterns look fantastic, and where houses use excellent detail, very likely would it be designed by an adult since they had more experience, education, and free time.
EDIT: After reading some counter-arguments about how I think “kids aren’t capable”, I’ll have to agree that the original argument was not only wrong, but also contradictory to how I played Wild World when I was 16. And I didn’t even start playing Animal Crossing online until I was 21. So I changed that part a bit. And yes, I was referring to kids under the age of 13. I didn’t think of the teenagers when I said that.
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daringred_
✧ stupid lesbian ✧
you do realize this forum has trading boards for villagers and items, right? so even if we were to dumb down everyone under eighteen and claim they're "incapable" of playing online, designing houses, using patterns, completing the museum (literally a main gameplay mechanic?) and are only interested in trading for villagers/items, that is still what this forum is for, and so your point is completely moot.
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It seems useless to try to say anything now honestly. As it seems like everyone is very firm with their opinions.
But I want to say- I'm really confused on how you actually view your site, Jeremy.
There is no way to change your view if you truly think this, but Nintendo's audience has a large number of children and teenagers.
Yes, there are adults who play Nintendo games, like many of us here- but it's important to remember that it's mostly targeted towards children/teenagers.
A personal example- I play Splatoon a lot and when I'm playing with my friends and am frustrated at a random player, my friends remind me that it's probably a child that I'm frustrated at. It's important for me to remember that it could be and is probably someone who's my age- but 80% it's safer to assume it's probably either a child or a teenager.
If I join a Discord server or any discussion that's about- let's say, Cookie Run, My Little Pony, Among Us, Splatoon, or anything of the sort- I will always believe that I'm entering a space for the targeted audience for the media unless proven otherwise by the community and rules of the space.
So, unfortunately TBT being a website about "Animal Crossing" , by nature is targeted towards kids.
I'm not saying that Animal Crossing is only for kids, of course.
Your rules imply that it should be a PG site (prohibiting profanity, trying to take down posts that could potentially hurts people's feelings (??? i have never understood this), the ignore feature not actually being a block feature, and etc.) and like you said, unpinning the WDYLL is a change for the safety of the younger members on this site.
If you view your site as a PG-13 site.. or.. a site that is like other social media platforms for whatever reason- then you will probably have to take some time to re-adjust the rules accordingly and make it more obvious that TBT is not a child friendly environment for the lurkers and future members.
It's weird that TBT doesn't allow this.
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Kids are the ones who have the most free time, access to the internet and are 100% capable of doing what you listed.
If you're talking about 8-10 year olds, then I can see your point. But if you're talking about teens- you aren't giving them enough credit.
But I want to say- I'm really confused on how you actually view your site, Jeremy.
I personally have never seen TBT in the same light as Facebook, TikTok, Discord or Twitter and am rather confused by the comparison. But then again- I'm not one to use TBT to talk about my personal life.
Now this- this is just wrong.
There is no way to change your view if you truly think this, but Nintendo's audience has a large number of children and teenagers.
Yes, there are adults who play Nintendo games, like many of us here- but it's important to remember that it's mostly targeted towards children/teenagers.
A personal example- I play Splatoon a lot and when I'm playing with my friends and am frustrated at a random player, my friends remind me that it's probably a child that I'm frustrated at. It's important for me to remember that it could be and is probably someone who's my age- but 80% it's safer to assume it's probably either a child or a teenager.
If I join a Discord server or any discussion that's about- let's say, Cookie Run, My Little Pony, Among Us, Splatoon, or anything of the sort- I will always believe that I'm entering a space for the targeted audience for the media unless proven otherwise by the community and rules of the space.
So, unfortunately TBT being a website about "Animal Crossing" , by nature is targeted towards kids.
I'm not saying that Animal Crossing is only for kids, of course.
Your rules imply that it should be a PG site (prohibiting profanity, trying to take down posts that could potentially hurts people's feelings (??? i have never understood this), the ignore feature not actually being a block feature, and etc.) and like you said, unpinning the WDYLL is a change for the safety of the younger members on this site.
If you view your site as a PG-13 site.. or.. a site that is like other social media platforms for whatever reason- then you will probably have to take some time to re-adjust the rules accordingly and make it more obvious that TBT is not a child friendly environment for the lurkers and future members.
*I would also like this option.
It's weird that TBT doesn't allow this.
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I think there is cooldown period now so I will add this to my post- but if you don't think kids are capable of the things you said in your post, I think you're wrong.
Kids are the ones who have the most free time, access to the internet and are 100% capable of doing what you listed.
If you're talking about 8-10 year olds, then I can see your point. But if you're talking about teens- you aren't giving them enough credit.
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tiffanistarr
you’re on your own kid
This I’m sure isn’t going to sit well with some and I’m sure people will label me as mean or as a bully or whatever. My tone in this isn’t going to be cutesy and flowers because that doesn’t help imo. We are skirting around being 100% truthful with people because they’re sensitive and while I understand that and this isn’t meant to be hurtful and harmful it is going to be blunt. I can’t fake niceties and cuteness for the sake of someone else’s feelings, I just can’t be bothered to anymore. While this is not meant as a personal attack, bullying, or me being mean if that’s how you receive it then good luck to you.
This is a direct quote YOU said on the post YOU posted
Spoiler alert: those two statements are both disgusting and homophobic.
The thing that I keep noticing in this space when someone is accused of homophobic or transphobic rhetoric(after saying something problematic) they use the excuse “that’s not how I feel, I’m just stating how some people may feel.” Save yourself the trouble and just post what you feel and think. Stop living in this world of what aboutisms and being a vessel for other people’s potentially harmful thoughts. It only makes you look guilty by association. Sorry, but it’s true.
The fact that YOU and maybe others can’t understand that those two statements are equally homophobic is what’s alarming and why people don’t want to associate with you.
I’m sorry, but if multiple people in the LGBTQ community are telling you that it’s problematic and insensitive then your intent doesn’t matter the end result is what matters. Coming back from a hiatus to double down on the “some people might see it that way” defense is still not addressing the issue that you don’t understand why those two statements are equally homophobic and gross.
To sit here and say this:
Completely diminishes the harm that is done by these specific groups when it comes to LGBTQ rights and existence. To see the hate and violence towards LGBTQ as a result of religious indoctrination and simply apply it to polygamy is laughable and disgusting.
Now, I can’t say I know much about polygamy but I do know it’s a cultural norm in a lot of places and hell in the US we have a whole state that loves it. It’s rooted deep in a lot of religions and cultures throughout history.
So you might be correct that a thousand years ago the people defending the sanctity of marriage for man and woman only had a huge impact on polygamous relationships but for as long as I can remember it’s been used as a weapon against LGBTQ people and still is to this day.
Nobody is diminishing the existence of polygamy and invalidating their rights to live. They’re just not. Polygamy is often rooted in coercion, abuse, and extreme religious fundamentalism. There is a difference between polygamy and polyamory and I don’t think going to bat for the defense of Polygamy is helping your case. Not saying that is what you meant to do but that’s how it reads.
Nobody is diminishing the existence of polygamy and invalidating their rights to live. They’re just not. Polygamy is often rooted in coercion, abuse, and extreme religious fundamentalism. There is a difference between polygamy and polyamory and I don’t think going to bat for the defense of Polygamy is helping your case. Not saying that is what you meant to do but that’s how it reads.
With all due respect and assuming you are a heterosexual person you don’t get to decide what is homophobic and what is not. If members of the LGBTQ community are saying they have a problem with a statement/opinion you made then what you said is problematic. It really is that simple.
Another observation I’ve made is when people are confronted with their own problematic statements they made, more often than not they are concerned with how it makes them look and appear. It really speaks volumes when people who say problematic things (on purpose or by complete accident) are more concerned with their comfort and how it makes them feel opposed to the actual hurt minorities or communities that have the right to offended.
Again this isn’t meant to be overly harsh and mean, it’s just the hard truth nobody wants to say out loud. If we are tone policing then I’m sure I’ve pissed people off, but to be so honest, I’m not really upset about that. If I get reprimanded for being “brutally honest” then so be it.
Again Nightglow, this isn’t meant as a personal attack towards you. Just an observation and maybe you can further more explain later if you feel up to it.
I originally had no intention on posting because so many members have already voiced what I've wanted to say already, however the staff responses lately have been incredibly disappointing and concerning.
I will echo what others have said, as there's absolutely no justifiable reason for an Animal Crossing forum to have spaces for conversations about sex/sexual material/content. I joined the forums when I was 15 years old, and it was one of my first social media platforms ever, along with my sibling who joined not long after I did, and is three years younger than me. My parents monitored our online activity back then, and this site was a place they felt was safer precisely because it was a forum for Animal Crossing. I was unfortunately exposed to sexual content when I was 13 years old on another site that was also supposed to be safe for kids, so I'm honestly appalled that I joined TBT back in 2015 under the impression that it was a much safer space, and I'm convinced that it was out of pure luck + my long periods of inactivity over the years that kept me from interacting with anyone trying to exploit me, though I have definitely seen numerous posts that should have been taken down relating to racism, homophobia, abuse, etc., which other members have already expressed their concerns about as well. It's unsettling to think that my sibling and I weren't as safe as we believed, especially after seeing Jeremy's replies. I'd like bring up that at least two parents have already voiced that they they would never allow their children/are horrified by what's been allowed on this site, and the state that it's in. Is this not a cause for concern?? It doesn't and shouldn't matter that a majority of the members are adults. I strongly believe that it's still our responsibility to keep this place a safe space for children, and I certainly wouldn't compare TBT to platforms like Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, etc. They are not on the same scale by any means, and I think anyone who has used any of these platforms would agree.
I'll also touch on seliph's ban because I genuinely cannot comprehend how he was banned for one year. I've seen the screenshots of his warning, and I truly cannot see this as anything more than certain staff members having a bias against him and waiting on anything to use against him. Seliph is such a non-issue and one of the only members on here who had the guts to bring up concerns/topics that many other users are too scared/nervous to bring up. Funny how he's now banned! And this isn't just a case of a bunch of users who are friends with him standing up for him. You don't need to be friends with someone, or even like them to see when they've been wronged— I would think this was common sense by now, as most of us participating in this discussion are adults whom I would hope could let go of their biases when appropriate, but I'm not sure if that's the case because I feel like everyone's pleas and concerns are falling on deaf ears.
I'm only a regular member so I don't know much of what goes on behind the scenes, however I've never heard of an instance where a ban/warning was reconsidered. I'm still very much under the impression that staff will not go back on a decision once it's been made, and that's a damn shame. I'd love to be proved wrong, but I'm at a point where it's hard to believe otherwise. Especially because there seems to be an inconsistency in enforcing rules, prioritizing the wrong posts + users for warnings/bans, and cherry-picking. A member can be banned for what seems to be rude behaviour, but sexual content/material is alright?? I still cannot even believe what I've been reading in this thread.
I love the memories I've made on this forum and have met so many amazing people, and I really do appreciate how much time and care has been put into the events that the staff have run over the years. However, the state of things right now leaves me feeling hopeless. I didn't even touch on the homophobic rhetoric, as many members have spoken about it more eloquently than I could, but I will say this it's heart-breaking to see this during Pride Month. More issues keep being brought to light, and I feel like more damage than repair is being made. I've already had multiple people off-load their collectibles and tbt to me, or DM me saying they're fully quitting or taking a step back from the forums. I believe I've already counted at least 18 members who have either quit/are taking a long break. Members are dropping like flies— most of them leaving due to being unhappy with how staff have been handling the issues at hand. There is no way staff don't notice these departures and could possibly think that this isn't related to their moderation and handling of the site + treatment of regular members. We need actual change and accountability. I think I'm speaking for more than myself here when I say I want to see actions, not just words, but the staff responses thus far are not convincing me.
I will echo what others have said, as there's absolutely no justifiable reason for an Animal Crossing forum to have spaces for conversations about sex/sexual material/content. I joined the forums when I was 15 years old, and it was one of my first social media platforms ever, along with my sibling who joined not long after I did, and is three years younger than me. My parents monitored our online activity back then, and this site was a place they felt was safer precisely because it was a forum for Animal Crossing. I was unfortunately exposed to sexual content when I was 13 years old on another site that was also supposed to be safe for kids, so I'm honestly appalled that I joined TBT back in 2015 under the impression that it was a much safer space, and I'm convinced that it was out of pure luck + my long periods of inactivity over the years that kept me from interacting with anyone trying to exploit me, though I have definitely seen numerous posts that should have been taken down relating to racism, homophobia, abuse, etc., which other members have already expressed their concerns about as well. It's unsettling to think that my sibling and I weren't as safe as we believed, especially after seeing Jeremy's replies. I'd like bring up that at least two parents have already voiced that they they would never allow their children/are horrified by what's been allowed on this site, and the state that it's in. Is this not a cause for concern?? It doesn't and shouldn't matter that a majority of the members are adults. I strongly believe that it's still our responsibility to keep this place a safe space for children, and I certainly wouldn't compare TBT to platforms like Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, etc. They are not on the same scale by any means, and I think anyone who has used any of these platforms would agree.
I'll also touch on seliph's ban because I genuinely cannot comprehend how he was banned for one year. I've seen the screenshots of his warning, and I truly cannot see this as anything more than certain staff members having a bias against him and waiting on anything to use against him. Seliph is such a non-issue and one of the only members on here who had the guts to bring up concerns/topics that many other users are too scared/nervous to bring up. Funny how he's now banned! And this isn't just a case of a bunch of users who are friends with him standing up for him. You don't need to be friends with someone, or even like them to see when they've been wronged— I would think this was common sense by now, as most of us participating in this discussion are adults whom I would hope could let go of their biases when appropriate, but I'm not sure if that's the case because I feel like everyone's pleas and concerns are falling on deaf ears.
I'm only a regular member so I don't know much of what goes on behind the scenes, however I've never heard of an instance where a ban/warning was reconsidered. I'm still very much under the impression that staff will not go back on a decision once it's been made, and that's a damn shame. I'd love to be proved wrong, but I'm at a point where it's hard to believe otherwise. Especially because there seems to be an inconsistency in enforcing rules, prioritizing the wrong posts + users for warnings/bans, and cherry-picking. A member can be banned for what seems to be rude behaviour, but sexual content/material is alright?? I still cannot even believe what I've been reading in this thread.
I love the memories I've made on this forum and have met so many amazing people, and I really do appreciate how much time and care has been put into the events that the staff have run over the years. However, the state of things right now leaves me feeling hopeless. I didn't even touch on the homophobic rhetoric, as many members have spoken about it more eloquently than I could, but I will say this it's heart-breaking to see this during Pride Month. More issues keep being brought to light, and I feel like more damage than repair is being made. I've already had multiple people off-load their collectibles and tbt to me, or DM me saying they're fully quitting or taking a step back from the forums. I believe I've already counted at least 18 members who have either quit/are taking a long break. Members are dropping like flies— most of them leaving due to being unhappy with how staff have been handling the issues at hand. There is no way staff don't notice these departures and could possibly think that this isn't related to their moderation and handling of the site + treatment of regular members. We need actual change and accountability. I think I'm speaking for more than myself here when I say I want to see actions, not just words, but the staff responses thus far are not convincing me.
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I wasn't planning on posting in here again because my brain has once again stopped working and words are Hard, and, frankly, I know it's a waste of my time and energy. I'm sorry if this reads as all over the place; this wasn't easy to write, physically or mentally.
28 days. This has been ongoing for 28 days now (not even taking into account the Valentine's situation, how long it took for a statement to be made, and this thread's predecessor) and has taken up 22/41 of this thread's pages alone, and not a single thing has been truly listened to, rectified, or changed in that time. When this thread was first created, I was so confident that even if we as a community don't see eye-to-eye on certain things all of the time, that we all wanted and were striving for the same thing - for this to be a safe and welcoming place. I'm not confident about that anymore, or if we ever wanted this to be a safe space for the same reason(s) and/or kind(s) of people.
In regards to seliph's ban, and I'm going to namedrop him now because everyone knows that he's the banned user, the narrative that all of us that have spoken up in his defence are simply upset because we're his friends is dismissive and honestly very frustrating. I said this in my first post and I'll say it again now: seliph and I are not friends. A good chunk of the people who have spoken up for him are not his friends; in fact, seliph hasn't spoken to or even seen some of them before. This situation is the most I've ever personally spoken to him, and even then, it's just been a handful of words and reacts here and there. We're friendly, and I've never had a bad interaction with him (and I hope he'd be able to say the same about me), but we don't have one-on-one conversations or share our deepest, darkest secrets with one another. We're acquaintances at most. We don't have to be friends with someone to respect them, care about them, or speak up in their defence when we believe they've been mistreated and/or punished/judged too harshly, and that is 100% what has happened here.
Some of the most vile, disturbing, questionable, and downright harmful posts I've ever seen are still up and visible on here, and the users who made them are still running around. And it's not a matter of staff just simply didn't see them, because some of them were reported many times, both from the posts themselves and in CTS. Some of these posts were reported by seliph himself, and he was dismissed because, why, he didn't word his reports nicely enough?? "you can't celebrate diversity when you're actively protecting and making excuses for homophobes, transphobes, racists, etc" and "you can't celebrate diversity when you're actively protecting and making excuses for homophobes, transphobes, racists, etc
" are the exact same sentence, one just packs more of a punch. You can't agree to disagree or put a pretty little bow on homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, white supremacy, racism, etc, and expecting anyone to do that or to stay quiet and let staff handle it (when, I'm sorry, staff often Does Not handle it) is ridiculous.
There is no middle ground or playing devil's advocate here. This is either a space that tolerates homophobia, transphobia, racism, etc, etc, or it's not. The minute there is even one person who has those ideologies in a given space, even if they word them nicely enough, the space is no longer safe. And if we're going to excuse these people because
where was this energy for seliph? How many times has he said that he isn't intentionally being rude or disrespectful, that he just naturally is blunt and passionate about the topics he speaks about, especially when the topic is someone disrespecting his or someone else's rights and mere existence? Why does what he has to say not matter just because of how he says it? he's simply human, too, is he not? And why is it expected of us to tolerate those who are "uneducated or misinformed regarding sensitive topics"?? Why are we expected to tolerate the obtuse at best and harmful at worst things they do and say? Especially when it's repeated posts and behaviours over the course of years, and no matter how many conversations you have with them or how many resources you give them, they remain set in their ways? When does their ignorance stop being our burden? When do you accept that their ignorance is intentional and decide enough is enough?
Continuing to suggest that we make a CTS thread for anything when several of us have expressed that not only does CTS feel like shouting into the void (and that seems to have not changed), but quite a few of us (myself included) have CTS threads that have gone unacknowledged and without a response of any kind, is also extremely frustrating. In March, I made a CTS thread to report a user that has made women/AFAB people uncomfortable on numerous occasions (myself included), been creepy towards them, and has even caused some of them to leave the forums permanently, and I never received a reply. As far as I am aware, this user has not been banned, suspended, or reprimanded in any way, and they are free to come back and use the site as normal if they so desired, and that is absolutely unacceptable. Making that CTS was so scary and triggering for me, and to not even get a response of any kind did not help. It feels like such a waste of my time. I completely understand that you can't disclose everything about everything for privacy reasons, but a simple, "we've read this post and are looking into it," or "this situation has been resolved" would go a long way.
The continued lack of communication from staff in this thread has been very frustrating as well. Prior to the discussion that started on Sunday, staff was radio silent for over a week - other than to release the pride backdrops. And I don't mean any shade or disrespect to Mistreil whatsoever; they truly went above and beyond and did a phenomenal job with all of the backdrops, and I appreciate the time and effort they put in, especially on a time crunch. I was so, so excited about the omniromantic and demisexual backdrops. But, to be honest, the release of pride backdrops when a big chunk of your diverse community has expressed that they feel unsafe and unheard, and some of them have even left because of it, feels a little tone deaf. I understand that you all have jobs, other responsibilities, and personal lives and that you can't be doing teebeetee.com stuff all of the time, and nobody is expecting you to, but taking just 2 minutes to send out a quick "we've read everything and are taking everything that's been said into consideration" or "we're in the process of discussing/composing our response to -insert topic here-", etc post other than when you're prompted to do so because people are getting antsy due to days of radio silence would also go a long way.
I don't want to just echo what Sharksheep has already eloquently said, but I do want to express that I also see the similarities between this part of your response and your response to the van incident in 2020. I can't speak on Oblivia's apology because it's not my apology to accept or not accept, but in my honest opinion, how is anyone who was affected by that situation supposed to believe her apology is genuine when 1) it came 5 years late, and 2) the same mindset and ideology that fuelled her responses and yours in 2020 is present once again 5 years later??
The majority of the most active users on TBT are adults, yes, but it is literally the adults that are telling you that they are uncomfortable and feel unsafe, and it was adults telling you that in 2020.
I celebrated my 10-year TBT anniversary in April. I love this community and everything and everyone it has given me so, so much. TBT and the amazing friends that I've made here got me through the pandemic, my mom's Crohn's Disease diagnosis, my grandmother's passing, Zeva (my childhood cat)'s passing 6 weeks later, Alize and Mazikeen (the kittens we adopted after Zeva)'s passing 3 and 8 months later, and everything in-between. This situation has devastated me so, so much. It genuinely keeps me up at night. I risk upsetting or losing at least one of my friends every single time I post in here, and that devastates and terrifies me beyond words, but I can't be quiet about this.
I have always been one of the first to express my gratitude to staff every chance I get. I have countlessly thanked staff for their time, efforts, and dedication to maintaining this community and keeping this site up and running, planning, organizing, and hosting events, etc, and I have meant it every single time. TBT has given me so much. But I'm done.
Since I came back here for New Horizons in 2020, I have never thought about leaving permanently. I love this community so much that I never thought I could leave permanently, or that I would ever want to. Until now. I am not safe here. My friends are not safe here. My TBT-coloured glasses are off, and unless some serious, serious changes are made, we will continue to not be safe here.
So many of the people that have helped make this community so amazing, diverse, and special over the past 10 years and the past 5 have left. And, yes, people come and go all the time. But what happens in 1, 5, 10 years time when there's new people here, but the same bs is happening? The cycle will continue tomorrow unless you break it today.
Also, continuously stating that you're open to feedback when you've locked this thread for a week and have now implemented a 4-hour post cooldown sends 2 very different messages. Please, please reconsider the kind of environment you're fostering.
To end, I will leave with this post from Jeremy from 2016. Please take care of yourselves.
28 days. This has been ongoing for 28 days now (not even taking into account the Valentine's situation, how long it took for a statement to be made, and this thread's predecessor) and has taken up 22/41 of this thread's pages alone, and not a single thing has been truly listened to, rectified, or changed in that time. When this thread was first created, I was so confident that even if we as a community don't see eye-to-eye on certain things all of the time, that we all wanted and were striving for the same thing - for this to be a safe and welcoming place. I'm not confident about that anymore, or if we ever wanted this to be a safe space for the same reason(s) and/or kind(s) of people.
In regards to seliph's ban, and I'm going to namedrop him now because everyone knows that he's the banned user, the narrative that all of us that have spoken up in his defence are simply upset because we're his friends is dismissive and honestly very frustrating. I said this in my first post and I'll say it again now: seliph and I are not friends. A good chunk of the people who have spoken up for him are not his friends; in fact, seliph hasn't spoken to or even seen some of them before. This situation is the most I've ever personally spoken to him, and even then, it's just been a handful of words and reacts here and there. We're friendly, and I've never had a bad interaction with him (and I hope he'd be able to say the same about me), but we don't have one-on-one conversations or share our deepest, darkest secrets with one another. We're acquaintances at most. We don't have to be friends with someone to respect them, care about them, or speak up in their defence when we believe they've been mistreated and/or punished/judged too harshly, and that is 100% what has happened here.
Some of the most vile, disturbing, questionable, and downright harmful posts I've ever seen are still up and visible on here, and the users who made them are still running around. And it's not a matter of staff just simply didn't see them, because some of them were reported many times, both from the posts themselves and in CTS. Some of these posts were reported by seliph himself, and he was dismissed because, why, he didn't word his reports nicely enough?? "you can't celebrate diversity when you're actively protecting and making excuses for homophobes, transphobes, racists, etc" and "you can't celebrate diversity when you're actively protecting and making excuses for homophobes, transphobes, racists, etc
" are the exact same sentence, one just packs more of a punch. You can't agree to disagree or put a pretty little bow on homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, white supremacy, racism, etc, and expecting anyone to do that or to stay quiet and let staff handle it (when, I'm sorry, staff often Does Not handle it) is ridiculous.There is no middle ground or playing devil's advocate here. This is either a space that tolerates homophobia, transphobia, racism, etc, etc, or it's not. The minute there is even one person who has those ideologies in a given space, even if they word them nicely enough, the space is no longer safe. And if we're going to excuse these people because
where was this energy for seliph? How many times has he said that he isn't intentionally being rude or disrespectful, that he just naturally is blunt and passionate about the topics he speaks about, especially when the topic is someone disrespecting his or someone else's rights and mere existence? Why does what he has to say not matter just because of how he says it? he's simply human, too, is he not? And why is it expected of us to tolerate those who are "uneducated or misinformed regarding sensitive topics"?? Why are we expected to tolerate the obtuse at best and harmful at worst things they do and say? Especially when it's repeated posts and behaviours over the course of years, and no matter how many conversations you have with them or how many resources you give them, they remain set in their ways? When does their ignorance stop being our burden? When do you accept that their ignorance is intentional and decide enough is enough?
Continuing to suggest that we make a CTS thread for anything when several of us have expressed that not only does CTS feel like shouting into the void (and that seems to have not changed), but quite a few of us (myself included) have CTS threads that have gone unacknowledged and without a response of any kind, is also extremely frustrating. In March, I made a CTS thread to report a user that has made women/AFAB people uncomfortable on numerous occasions (myself included), been creepy towards them, and has even caused some of them to leave the forums permanently, and I never received a reply. As far as I am aware, this user has not been banned, suspended, or reprimanded in any way, and they are free to come back and use the site as normal if they so desired, and that is absolutely unacceptable. Making that CTS was so scary and triggering for me, and to not even get a response of any kind did not help. It feels like such a waste of my time. I completely understand that you can't disclose everything about everything for privacy reasons, but a simple, "we've read this post and are looking into it," or "this situation has been resolved" would go a long way.
The continued lack of communication from staff in this thread has been very frustrating as well. Prior to the discussion that started on Sunday, staff was radio silent for over a week - other than to release the pride backdrops. And I don't mean any shade or disrespect to Mistreil whatsoever; they truly went above and beyond and did a phenomenal job with all of the backdrops, and I appreciate the time and effort they put in, especially on a time crunch. I was so, so excited about the omniromantic and demisexual backdrops. But, to be honest, the release of pride backdrops when a big chunk of your diverse community has expressed that they feel unsafe and unheard, and some of them have even left because of it, feels a little tone deaf. I understand that you all have jobs, other responsibilities, and personal lives and that you can't be doing teebeetee.com stuff all of the time, and nobody is expecting you to, but taking just 2 minutes to send out a quick "we've read everything and are taking everything that's been said into consideration" or "we're in the process of discussing/composing our response to -insert topic here-", etc post other than when you're prompted to do so because people are getting antsy due to days of radio silence would also go a long way.
I don't want to just echo what Sharksheep has already eloquently said, but I do want to express that I also see the similarities between this part of your response and your response to the van incident in 2020. I can't speak on Oblivia's apology because it's not my apology to accept or not accept, but in my honest opinion, how is anyone who was affected by that situation supposed to believe her apology is genuine when 1) it came 5 years late, and 2) the same mindset and ideology that fuelled her responses and yours in 2020 is present once again 5 years later??
The majority of the most active users on TBT are adults, yes, but it is literally the adults that are telling you that they are uncomfortable and feel unsafe, and it was adults telling you that in 2020.
I celebrated my 10-year TBT anniversary in April. I love this community and everything and everyone it has given me so, so much. TBT and the amazing friends that I've made here got me through the pandemic, my mom's Crohn's Disease diagnosis, my grandmother's passing, Zeva (my childhood cat)'s passing 6 weeks later, Alize and Mazikeen (the kittens we adopted after Zeva)'s passing 3 and 8 months later, and everything in-between. This situation has devastated me so, so much. It genuinely keeps me up at night. I risk upsetting or losing at least one of my friends every single time I post in here, and that devastates and terrifies me beyond words, but I can't be quiet about this.
I have always been one of the first to express my gratitude to staff every chance I get. I have countlessly thanked staff for their time, efforts, and dedication to maintaining this community and keeping this site up and running, planning, organizing, and hosting events, etc, and I have meant it every single time. TBT has given me so much. But I'm done.
Since I came back here for New Horizons in 2020, I have never thought about leaving permanently. I love this community so much that I never thought I could leave permanently, or that I would ever want to. Until now. I am not safe here. My friends are not safe here. My TBT-coloured glasses are off, and unless some serious, serious changes are made, we will continue to not be safe here.
So many of the people that have helped make this community so amazing, diverse, and special over the past 10 years and the past 5 have left. And, yes, people come and go all the time. But what happens in 1, 5, 10 years time when there's new people here, but the same bs is happening? The cycle will continue tomorrow unless you break it today.
Also, continuously stating that you're open to feedback when you've locked this thread for a week and have now implemented a 4-hour post cooldown sends 2 very different messages. Please, please reconsider the kind of environment you're fostering.
To end, I will leave with this post from Jeremy from 2016. Please take care of yourselves.
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Sorry if I’m missing any context, I only somewhat caught up to page 41 and I’m -3hr TBT time and waiting for a doctor’s appt! I’m also responding to the conversation about “sexual content.”
I want to say I do appreciate this because, I come from another AC forum where like, Staffs’ reasoning for so long was literally that LGBTQ+ stuff was considered 18+ and doesn’t so much as have a pronouns field in user profiles because it’s too controversial and there are young children on the site. They were much too strict in that regard and it is ultimately the reason I resigned from Staff and left the site, lol.
What they did get right, however, is that I was absolutely completely safe as an 8 year-old in the mid-2000s, regularly playing Wild World and Pokemon DPPT online with teenagers and adults in their 20s that I met on that website.
Granted, I think things are different now… And I probably wouldn’t let my 8 year old online like that in any capacity if I had children. That site did have instances of teenagers being groomed by adult project staff-equivalent ranked staff, and the perpetrators were permabanned. There’s no way to guarantee 100% safety but there is a right stance to take on preventing these things, like not allowing any truly sexual references of any kind.
I think what I’m trying to say is that, although that site got it wrong with LGBTQ+ stuff, there was absolutely no tolerance for anything sexual, any allusions to it, any flirting on the website, anything. Stuff like what Chris said would not have been tolerated from a moderator, period, and moderators were appointed because they were very unlikely to do stuff like that? Idk.
I just think that’s so reasonable to me. It’s not about disenfranchising your active adult userbase not being “PG-13.” That's perhaps a misrepresentation of what we’re saying—which is just that, it’s common sense to just not allow so much sexual innuendos on a forum where there are 13 year olds and up !! Keep it in a group chat.
oath2order
#Porygon2024
I don't know how to word this properly but isn't that just a fundamental misunderstanding of what social media is? Forums are basically like Reddit, subforums being analogous to subreddits.
Like I get the definition of social media is more used for Facebook, Twitter and the like but forums still do apply.
Basically I guess what I'm trying to get at is forums aren't necessarily more kid-friendly, since they still are social media.
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no, reddit is basically a forums database. subreddits are the individual forums, each having their own rules on what they do and don't allow
I have been lurking this thread just to see if any actionable next steps have been shared, but am sad to see there is STILL nothing.
I understand that running and moderating a forum is hard, thankless work, but I think as a community, TBT deserves better than days and days of uncertainty with no concrete timeline for next steps.
Allowing LGBTQ+ topics is separate to the fact that there is unmoderated, open bigotry (purposeful or not) against minority groups happening in this forum. Allowing LGBTQ+ topics is separate to the fact that there are minors on these forums that may participate, be influenced by, or be inadvertantly exposed to topics inappropriate for minors.
The request was for the moderator team to clarify their stance on bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, and racism and to establish clear guidelines on what exactly is and is not allowed to be platformed on this website. The request was for there to be a CLEAR precedent as to what counts as a bannable offense. I especially feel like the stance on bigortry/misogyny/homophobia/racism is a no-brainer, not-even-2-seconds-out-of-your-life statement that could have been made literally weeks ago. The fact that there hasn't been such a statement is incredibly disappointing.
Sorry for ranting and for my disorganized thoughts. TBT deserved better than this and I'm so sad at what's going on.
The struggling with feedback is happening not because our members have and are expressing their own viewpoints on the issues brought up in this thread but because some of the moderators of this website are taking too long to take true accountability and are not coming back with actionable items. Literally I feel like half of this thread didn't have to exist if we received a timely response for the issues brought up. Instead, we have a moderator team of 9 people with no idea where most of them are, no concrete answers for how these legitimate concerns will be addressed, and a bunch of shoo-shoo-ing statements that completely dismiss the valid concerns of the members brave enough to speak up publicly in this thread. I also don't think that arguments are inherently unhelpful; instead, I think they are necessary and a sign that this community cares deeply about the experiences of the other users that are here. I am failing to see how these conversations are not helping the community when it is very clear that many people care deeply about the issues being discussed and these conversations only go to show just HOW important these topics are. Having a clear stance on these issues will only HELP set the precendent for acceptable community behavior.
I understand that running and moderating a forum is hard, thankless work, but I think as a community, TBT deserves better than days and days of uncertainty with no concrete timeline for next steps.
"...we're proud to be the first Animal Crossing community on the internet to allow such discussions/support when others did not." This part of your statement bothers me because it seems so unnecessary to mention given the root context of why we're even having half of these conversations in the first place. The root of the discussion you are mentioning here has not much to do with TBT allowing LGBTQ+ topics, and everything to do with having clearer moderation on topics that are inappropriate for minors.
Allowing LGBTQ+ topics is separate to the fact that there is unmoderated, open bigotry (purposeful or not) against minority groups happening in this forum. Allowing LGBTQ+ topics is separate to the fact that there are minors on these forums that may participate, be influenced by, or be inadvertantly exposed to topics inappropriate for minors.
The request was for the moderator team to clarify their stance on bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, and racism and to establish clear guidelines on what exactly is and is not allowed to be platformed on this website. The request was for there to be a CLEAR precedent as to what counts as a bannable offense. I especially feel like the stance on bigortry/misogyny/homophobia/racism is a no-brainer, not-even-2-seconds-out-of-your-life statement that could have been made literally weeks ago. The fact that there hasn't been such a statement is incredibly disappointing.
Sorry for ranting and for my disorganized thoughts. TBT deserved better than this and I'm so sad at what's going on.
