Generative AI images on TBT

[pawpatrolbab]

virtue signalling, give me a break. in the case of AI art, it is very much black and white. these engines are programmed off of art they don't have permission for, stealing from artists who actually put the time, effort and creativity into drawing and creating. this is specifically about ai images/art, not ai in the medical field or anything that does good, this just comes across as obtuse. if you (ubiquitous) can't express yourself without deliberately/willingly using what's effectively stolen, lazy "art", then that sounds like a you problem, not a stifling of personal expression lmao.

Adding onto this, even aside from the fact that AI generated imagery is stolen without consent, there are very large real-world impacts of AI onto our environment. Just because it is how society is moving forward does not mean it’s a good thing, and there have been many things in history that were socially acceptable once upon a time until we as a society decided to change it

If you haven’t already I would highly recommend looking into the environmental impact of what AI generation causes to our planet due to the technology needed to run / process it. It’s just really not worth it especially when we as a society are completely physically able to create these things ourselves ( yes not everyone is at the same skill set but I am a firm believer that anyone can be if they actually put the effort towards it )

 

[Gabby]

virtue signalling, give me a break. in the case of AI art, it is very much black and white. these engines are programmed off of art they don't have permission for, stealing from artists who actually put the time, effort and creativity into drawing and creating. this is specifically about ai images/art, not ai in the medical field or anything that does good, this just comes across as obtuse. if you (ubiquitous) can't express yourself without deliberately/willingly using what's effectively stolen, lazy "art", then that sounds like a you problem, not a stifling of personal expression lmao.

Listen, a hit dog hollers.

I don’t agree with artists work being stolen in the way it has been to train AI. But it’s done and already happened. There is no going back.

I do think this is an issue of personal expression. Sure, you can frame it as a “them” problem, but the person using Gen AI to make their avatar/signature is attempting to personally express themselves. You just disagree with how. It certainly would be a “them” problem if they are unaware of how Gen AI is made, but that doesn’t change that it’s personal expression. A diluted expression, yes, but the intention to define oneself is still there.

TW hypothetical scenario:

If children ever join this forum again (hypothetical new animal crossing game in the future), they won’t necessarily have the experience or knowledge about Gen AI. They will be brought up in a world where it already exists. They will know if someone is rude to them about it, though.

If we ever expect this place to continue on with new members, then we don’t really come off as a warm, welcoming community if someone’s AI generated avatar or signature is immediately removed or flagged or reported. The dominating opinion on TBT is that Gen AI is discouraged. New users will learn that quick enough. Perhaps it will even change their mind and reflect on their past actions.

TBT has many artists that comprise its user base which create a major bias towards anti-Gen AI. This is reasonable. But I think, too, we need to think about this issue from the perspective of those who are less educated or entirely uneducated about the issue, especially concerning potential younger, new members, who would allow TBT to continue to thrive and live on into the future, which I personally think would be cool.

 

[Saylor]

Listen, a hit dog hollers.

I don’t agree with artists work being stolen in the way it has been to train AI. But it’s done and already happened. There is no going back.

I do think this is an issue of personal expression. Sure, you can frame it as a “them” problem, but the person using Gen AI to make their avatar/signature is attempting to personally express themselves. You just disagree with how. It certainly would be a “them” problem if they are unaware of how Gen AI is made, but that doesn’t change that it’s personal expression. A diluted expression, yes, but the intention to define oneself is still there.

TW hypothetical scenario:

If children ever join this forum again (hypothetical new animal crossing game in the future), they won’t necessarily have the experience or knowledge about Gen AI. They will be brought up in a world where it already exists. They will know if someone is rude to them about it, though.

If we ever expect this place to continue on with new members, then we don’t really come off as a warm, welcoming community if someone’s AI generated avatar or signature is immediately removed or flagged or reported. The dominating opinion on TBT is that Gen AI is discouraged. New users will learn that quick enough. Perhaps it will even change their mind and reflect on their past actions.

TBT has many artists that comprise its user base which create a major bias towards anti-Gen AI. This is reasonable. But I think, too, we need to think about this issue from the perspective of those who are less educated or entirely uneducated about the issue, especially concerning potential younger, new members, who would allow TBT to continue to thrive and live on into the future, which I personally think would be cool.

I see where you're coming from and initially I leaned more toward a "strongly discourage but maybe not outright ban" stance because I had some of the same fears (mostly I was worried about the potential of someone feeling bad if they were accused of using AI art when it was actually art made by themselves), but now I do think a broad ban on avatars/signatures and usage in posts is the way to go. To speak a bit on children maybe not having the experience or knowledge about gen AI, though, I actually think TBT could be a great place to learn. With AI becoming so ubiquitous on social media sites and just the internet in general, I think TBT as a site geared around a video game made by developers who have talked about the importance of maintaining a human touch in art, of which many members are artists themselves, could be a safe haven from that. I don't think an AI ban is something where members would need to receive any sort of punishment if they break the rule and if anyone is rude to them about it I'd imagine that would be handled by the mods anyway. Beyond not being able to display certain content in our avatars/signatures, we already have a signature size requirement where our sigs will be flagged and removed if they're too tall or wide, so I don't think it'd really be any more unwelcoming than that if an AI image ban was to be implemented.

As for how the AI images would be identified, if a community liaison role comes to fruition I think there could be a subset of those members (those who are artists or feel more comfortable with identification) who help deal with them on a case by case basis. Members can send in reports if something looks off to them and a community liaison could look at the image themselves and then politely contact the poster if necessary to ask them if they have a source for their image. For users who want help learning how to identify AI images, I think the "Is this AI?" thread Meri linked to earlier is a great place to start and could be pinned/linked to by community liasions in their discussions with members about the topic.

 

[Gabby]

I see where you're coming from and initially I leaned more toward a "strongly discourage but maybe not outright ban" stance because I had some of the same fears (mostly I was worried about the potential of someone feeling bad if they were accused of using AI art when it was actually art made by themselves), but now I do think a broad ban on avatars/signatures and usage in posts is the way to go. To speak a bit on children maybe not having the experience or knowledge about gen AI, though, I actually think TBT could be a great place to learn. With AI becoming so ubiquitous on social media sites and just the internet in general, I think TBT as a site geared around a video game made by developers who have talked about the importance of maintaining a human touch in art, of which many members are artists themselves, could be a safe haven from that. I don't think an AI ban is something where members would need to receive any sort of punishment if they break the rule and if anyone is rude to them about it I'd imagine that would be handled by the mods anyway. Beyond not being able to display certain content in our avatars/signatures, we already have a signature size requirement where our sigs will be flagged and removed if they're too tall or wide, so I don't think it'd really be any more unwelcoming than that if an AI image ban was to be implemented.

As for how the AI images would be identified, if a community liaison role comes to fruition I think there could be a subset of those members (those who are artists or feel more comfortable with identification) who help deal with them on a case by case basis. Members can send in reports if something looks off to them and a community liaison could look at the image themselves and then politely contact the poster if necessary to ask them if they have a source for their image. For users who want help learning how to identify AI images, I think the "Is this AI?" thread Meri linked to earlier is a great place to start and could be pinned/linked to by community liasions in their discussions with members about the topic.

I see your point and I appreciate the response. I'm still not into, culturally, members reporting other members for their avatar/signature choices, but I can respect the sentiment of disallowing AI on the site as an educational tool.

I think if this is going to be the case, then it would be prudent for staff/community liaisons/whomever to try to be as nice about it as possible. I think it can be easy for staff to be short with members out of seeing the same infraction over and over again, but in the case that disallowing Gen AI is a cultural community choice, I think that should be conveyed in a respectful manner.

And another thing.... this part isn't necessarily in response to you, Saylor, I just want to get my thoughts out before the timer is up.

I got my pianta avatar from a random google search. It's not like I made it or had someone create it, I stole someones art by using this image as my avatar. Theft is okay as long as the art stolen was handmade? What's the line? My avatar is acceptable but AI would not be. I think my point is, if this rule is to be enacted for avatars and signatures, we should be honest with ourselves and the community that this is a cultural choice because the community is largely comprised of artists. It's anti-Gen AI for the sake of being anti-Gen AI. Theft is not necessarily the issue because guaranteed several instances of art have been "stolen" on the forum without credit, it was just stolen not using Gen AI, which is what this community prefers.

 

[Sheando]

To speak to concerns around unfairly punishing those who don’t have the tech literacy/experience to differentiate between AI and non-AI art, I think a simple solution would be to say that GenAI is not permitted on TBT and that all GenAI images will be removed, but that this is (usually) not considered an infraction of any kind EXCEPT in the obvious case of things like contests etc. where one’s own personal work is mandatory and thus nobody could accidentally submit something AI generated.

Just an initial thought as I am at work and this is my first foray into the topic after being absent for a couple weeks due to illness and travel.

I personally would support making TBT a GenAI-free space for all the ethical reasons listed elsewhere in this thread. I hate it, I think it’s dangerous, and I think those who market it are relying heavily on the lie of inevitability (“what’s done is done, it’s too late to change anything, GenAI will be everywhere going forward” etc.) to escape legal consequences and override the consciences of consumers. It is possible to resist generative AI. Let’s keep it possible.

But yeah, I hear users who are concerned about being berated or shamed for using an AI image without realizing, which is why I think that the removal of GenAI content should be (at least for infrequent good faith instances) a neutral mod action—“that image is GenAI and has been removed” vs “How dare you post this art theft slop!” Users who are generating the images themselves won’t see any benefit to repeatedly doing so if the images are always removed, and repeated violations might require additional staff action. Users who genuinely didn’t realize can get help from the community with spotting AI “tells” without being presumed malicious.

For a new/young user, I don’t think a short message about “Your avatar was removed because GenAI images don’t meet our community guidelines” is any more unwelcoming than having a signature removed due to size limit restrictions. It’s totally normal for forums to have logistical regulations that members have to figure out when creating profile content.

I’m sure there are pitfalls I’m not thinking of, but I just wanted to mention that I don’t think that “TBT shouldn’t allow any AI generated content” necessarily implies “TBT should assume malicious intent and punish users who upload such content.”

 

[Kristea]

Just want to add,

While I'm not for or against banning the use of ai for avatar use (partially because I agree with the "where does it stop" concern) I prefer not to use AI obviously, but I wasn't sure if my image was AI. For those who like to express themselves via creation I just used a stardew valley icon creator. I'm fairly sure there are a lot others for other use if people are interested in expressing themselves but don't have artistic skills. Just thought I'd mention those tools are out there, for anyone like me who may be interested.

 

[daringred_]

To that end: if anyone has knowledge of alternative search engines or image repositories that don't have GenAI, please do share! The same goes for search terms that might be helpful. My focus is on things that have a lower bar to entry (and thus not too different from a google image search), so as to minimize the burden on affected members.

not a search engine or anything, but it could be worth linking something like picrew. they're easy to credit, accessible and cover a lot of different art styles and topics, so people can make profile pictures or signatures featuring their sonas/ocs/favorite characters/ships etc. i used to use a lot of picrew results for decoration on here before i was able to consistently commission artwork instead.

 

[GooseyGuos]

I can find it strange to understand discuss with English. I can read better than this. But if you are use small text font that making even more challenge and change between normal size and too small. I already find difficult this to make it harder my apologise to you but is true.

I think this Gobby is a wonderful person I agree with this all. We cannot make avoidance of technology progress and almost certainly should never treat people in a bad way of the moment, because of using the technology. Nobody is to be bad person for using this is technology. Not a shaming is to happen please.

Children are doing learn from it at the schools. We must get with the program.

 

[pawpatrolbab]

not a search engine or anything, but it could be worth linking something like picrew. they're easy to credit, accessible and cover a lot of different art styles and topics, so people can make profile pictures or signatures featuring their sonas/ocs/favorite characters/ships etc. i used to use a lot of picrew results for decoration on here before i was able to consistently commission artwork instead.

This is an amazing idea, there are even Animal Crossing ones!

 

[Ossiran]

Generative AI should be disallowed across the board.

To properly use Generative AI, it requires you to train it specifically on either your own work or public domain works. Since it's doubtful anyone here has their own private Generative AI tool, that means they're almost certainly using tools that have stolen art from artists to train it.

Even allowing it for avatars, signatures, and/or concept art is endorsing the theft. Concept artists make a living off of providing concept art. Strongly discouraging it is not enough. By allowing it at all, you're kind of giving a middle finger to actual artists.

Crude MS Paint doodles by the most untalented of individuals have more heart and creativity than anything pumped out by Generative AI, and I strongly encourage TBT to reverse their stance and ban it across the board.

Yes, it's getting harder to catch everything, but that doesn't mean you have to allow it. I'm not saying you have to ban everyone that uses it, but you should still be disallowing its use.

 

[-Raven-]

Listen, a hit dog hollers.

I don’t agree with artists work being stolen in the way it has been to train AI. But it’s done and already happened. There is no going back.

I do think this is an issue of personal expression. Sure, you can frame it as a “them” problem, but the person using Gen AI to make their avatar/signature is attempting to personally express themselves. You just disagree with how. It certainly would be a “them” problem if they are unaware of how Gen AI is made, but that doesn’t change that it’s personal expression. A diluted expression, yes, but the intention to define oneself is still there.

TW hypothetical scenario:

If children ever join this forum again (hypothetical new animal crossing game in the future), they won’t necessarily have the experience or knowledge about Gen AI. They will be brought up in a world where it already exists. They will know if someone is rude to them about it, though.

If we ever expect this place to continue on with new members, then we don’t really come off as a warm, welcoming community if someone’s AI generated avatar or signature is immediately removed or flagged or reported. The dominating opinion on TBT is that Gen AI is discouraged. New users will learn that quick enough. Perhaps it will even change their mind and reflect on their past actions.

TBT has many artists that comprise its user base which create a major bias towards anti-Gen AI. This is reasonable. But I think, too, we need to think about this issue from the perspective of those who are less educated or entirely uneducated about the issue, especially concerning potential younger, new members, who would allow TBT to continue to thrive and live on into the future, which I personally think would be cool.

I’ve done a pretty good job stopping myself from visiting / posting but I need to comment on this.

Kids are smarter and more adaptable than this post is making them out to be

That is all.

 

[GooseyGuos]

Is it hard to say in English. Please know I am trying. I want know people think because is art for fandom stealing too? Not own characters be drawing, is this stealing some art from people?

Many of people here make art in Japanese style and that is not to be stealing from the artists who first create this style? Please be think!

If some person has disabled and this is to use AI to make picture I would be not good to see people become bully for this.

 

[Kristea]

Is it hard to say in English. Please know I am trying. I want know people think because is art for fandom stealing too? Not own characters be drawing, is this stealing some art from people?

Many of people here make art in Japanese style and that is not to be stealing from the artists who first create this style? Please be think!

If some person has disabled and this is to use AI to make picture I would be not good to see people become bully for this.

If you use gen-ai to create that style, then yes it's stealing art from someone else.
If you draw your own inspired by another style, you're not actively taking pieces of someone elses art to build yours. So I'd say it's different.

Though if you're using an image you found as an icon and aren't crediting the artist (not always an easy thing to do, honestly.) then I feel like it flirts with being very similar to gen-ai in moral standing, because you're still stealing at that point.

That's why I don't really think AI should be banned as Avatars. It's just a deep hole of 'where does it stop' then and 'what is acceptable in terms of theft' etc. Not to mention making mods/admins work harder because now they have to analyze every new member icon/address it, etc. If they're okay with that whatever!

I don't like ai and I go out of my way to NOT use it, so it's not like I'm going to cry if they ban AI across the board... I just think it seems to focus only on one form of theft and I guess I don't understand why one is bad but not the other? (I understand WHY AI is bad, by the way. That's not what I meant by that statement, don't worry!)

As for disabled people, I am 100% understanding of disabled people/people with disabilities using AI... but not for art. As I mentioned in another post, there are MANY MANY options you can use to create icons for yourself that aren't AI and people who are disabled can and should use those - I do. I'm disabled. I don't use my disability to justify making AI art, I have other options. I admit 'just learn to draw!' always kind of stings when people tell me that, because I legit just can't draw (my hands claw up when I try to even hold a pencil x.x) but that doesn't mean I need to dive into AI. I made my avatar with a stardew valley icon maker, and I think she came out super cute =D

That said, for the record there is a site called hivemoderation I believe? It helps with telling you if an image is AI. Thought I'd put that there for people who wanted to check if their images are AI.

 

[Gabby]

I’ve done a pretty good job stopping myself from visiting / posting but I need to comment on this.

Kids are smarter and more adaptable than this post is making them out to be

That is all.

What an uncharitable interpretation of my post.

Nowhere in my post do I say that kids aren't intelligent or smart. I'm saying they're going to be growing up in a world where AI is already embedded into society and will not know a world without it, thus, they will likely be unaware of the issues associated it with it, much like how when you or I were young, we were unaware of the problematic issues surrounding many normal things in our world.

My concern is having a hostile member-base towards someone who isn't educated around AI-related issues.

I am aware that children are smart and adaptable. I'm not saying kids aren't. I'm saying this community tends to be rude to people who disagree with them or have a different opinion. Opinions are constructed through peoples life experience and educational level. Children, having been in the world fewer years than adults, have less life experience and less education. I'm not saying that with education a child wouldn't come to the conclusion that they do not want to use AI. I'm saying for children or younger members who are uneducated about AI, the TBT community (all of us) needs to not be jerks about it.

7/16 EDIT: And another thing... a world where Gen AI doesn't exist isn't possible. There is no "resisting" Gen AI. It is here to stay, it is the reality of the situation, it is in the world. I hate to be the bearer of bad news. You can *personally* resist, but what good does it do someone to ignore reality?