Edit by way of (spammy, non-post-merging) posting: I read your whole sentence about the RVS wrong. Off to a good start.
Too late - memewagon's rolling too fast to jump out now.
On another note, I'm excited to hear from the new players tomorrow.
I like your way of thinking - it's always past 2:00 a.m. somewhere.
I've wanted to ask this for a while now - Endless, Ender, do you know Trojan from somewhere? Apart from the new players, they're probably the one I'm most interested to hear from.
Ooh, hi Trojan. Looks like half the player list is new to mafia, then. Welcome.
Endless, care to explain your reasoning on voting for Kat?
Still not coherent, posting anyways. Keep in mind I?m writing this as I?m reading it so hopefully it makes sense when I change my mind about things based on later content.
Jumping the gun a little, aren?t you Rune? Two people had voted for her when you posted this with over 12 hours until lynch.When I first read this (keep this in mind for later please), I believed you over Endless but soft-townread both of you. While being wishy-washy doesn?t exactly make you look super strong town, in that situation I can understand your dilemma. As town (at least the way I play, some of you may beg to differ LOL), you want to be as honest and pro-town as possible without giving mafia any information that will give an advantage (in this case, making blue-sniping easier). Telling someone your role D1 when there?s not much on the table yet showing alignments, especially if you?re a PR, can be game-changing if the person you tell turns out to be mafia.
On the other hand, like I said, you want to be as honest as possible. So refusing to give information to someone who could be an ally pegs you as scummy. With that, you become a target for lynch. If you?re mislynched, we?re in the same boat as if you were blue-sniped - you?re still dead and town is down a PR.
It?s a fine line that relies solely on your own reads and subsequent judgements.
TL;DR: From that interaction alone, I soft town-read both of you because I saw both sides of the argument.
Then, Endless jumped on Slammint. Um, what? By your logic for voting Slammint, how are you town-reading Trojan? And expanding on that, why didn?t you attack Bloobloop for doing basically the same thing sans the (basically non-existent) bandwagon? Major red flags here.This is probably one of the best posts I?ve seen you make. Disagree on the top point, as I?ve already made it clear how I see Endless?s motive in that if he were town. But the rest, totally agree - hadn?t considered a scapegoat, but it makes sense since it?s been a fairly quiet day and nobody?s really done anything to put themselves on the chopping block. (Dolbywagon anyone?)This post alone makes me town-read you because it?s so all over the place and yet makes complete sense. Feels like you were just jotting down what you knew in a way that doesn?t feel forced.I like how your defence against Endless completely ignores the fact that he attacked & voted for Slammint on reasoning that could?ve applied to any of the new members plus all the stuff Ender?s been saying about the PMs he and Endless had been exchanging.As far as I can tell, nobody?s been inactive?
This post is a giant ramble-y mess.
Finally, some reads. (Hopefully more coherent than my last ones.)
EnderWiggin
You posts, much like Dad's, scare the crap out of me because they're so calm & generally well thought-out and organized. I can never tell if you're scum or not.
Anyways, attempting to see past that: Nothing since D1 that you've posted has thrown up flags for me. The whole You/Endless/Slammint thing made me suspicious for a bit, but since you've explained your reasoning for that and Slammint flipped red, I think it's more evidence that you're town than anything else. Other than that, eh. Don't really have a whole lot to say about you (at least that I can think of right now).
SarasaKat
From what I can see, you've been asking tons and tons of questions, making it look like you're helpful town trying to gather evidence, but offering little information in return. On top of that, a fair few of your posts are only defending yourself or imparting mafia wisdom/rules. But you have a few good read posts & one in particular where you mention that the mafia team is probably an experienced played coupled with a new player. While I agree with you that this is likely, I also don't want to take this as word and ignore my suspicions on the newer people or mislynch a bunch of town and I feel like you're trying to establish it as law when that's not the case. If you manage to lynch both Ender & I, mafia will likely win as it'll be two new members v.s. you (that assuming there's no other KP - if there is mafia will likely win even sooner). Basically volunteering yourself to be lynched also threw up major red flags for me - trying to be a martyr to make yourself look town just makes you look scummier in my opinion.
Also, the thing with Trojan. Maybe it's just because I never really saw the scumminess in them in the first place, but the sheer amount you pushed on them with the 'practically confirmed mafian' stuff is another red flag to me.
Went back & looked at meme mafia more closely and the resemblance isn't as strong as I thought it was, so that point's not really relevant.
Honestly, the final straw was your last post about me - knowing you outside of mafia, it kind of threw me for a loop that you'd say something like that.
Overall, I realize my points aren't the strongest, but in the end, you're the person I'm most suspicious of so I'm voting for you.
Trojan
Strong town-read since no one's CC'd (counter-claimed) them for the vigilante role. Also, looking back at their posts, they line up quite nicely - asked how to use a role before the PM to Rune asking how to submit kills (which, while weird, wouldn't make sense if they were mafia - wouldn't they just ask their scum pal(s)?) and suspected Kat & Slammint D1.
Panda1376
Town-read. I'm actually really impressed with them so far. They've been posting frequently and while their ideas aren't always fully explained and a bit all over the map, they're fairly solid and they've been asking good questions.
Call me Daniel
Honestly can't get a good read on them, mostly because they've given nothing but gut feels. First of all, you couldn't explain why you thought Kat was scum, it was just a feeling. You didn't vote for Kat D1 based on this, which is a good sign, but you also didn't vote at all, which screams avoidance. Appreciated your opinion post - a bit weak and again, based more on feelings than on evidence, but I liked the effort nonetheless. Then you went on to answer Kat's questions in the same way. "They don't seem like the kind of person to do _____.... they seem like they have experience..." What I really want to see from you is updated reads with evidence to back up your gut feels.
Another word of advice - saying stuff like this:Is generally a huge no-no. I get that it's a joke, but when people don't know your play-style yet, and also take the game seriously, it's easy to misinterpret.
Bloobloop
Has only posted twice, both times in response to my question about lynching Kat that didn't give a whole lot of information. Interestingly enough, though, they voted for Kat again today without any explanation. Null, but I wouldn't be totally surprised if they're a mafian who has no clue what to do now that they've lost their partner, so they're lying low and following the bandwagon.
Edit before posting: Welp, then they posted this:Um, yeah, that's bad. You want people to think you're town. Having people questioning your role is definitely not a good thing. Now I'm thinking you're a third party or something.
Not sure how I feel about whether or not there is a third party. On the one hand, it's alluded to in the OP and it would balance out the town-sidedness a bit, on the other hand, if there is an SK or something of the like, unless a kill was doubled-up last night, they didn't send in their kill.
Hopefully that also answers any questions I was asked yesterday - If not, just ask again and I?ll answer.
I answered your question though! Please refresh.
I feel like I'm getting lynched because Ender thinks you're innocent. I'm not so sure, but I do agree that the question you posed is very much town. So I feel like the train of thought went "If Kat's not mafia, then LaBelle must be"! Without stopping to consider anything I've posted previously. Hopefully that makes sense. It's riddled with assumptions and I only have 15 minutes to defend myself (thanks Ender).
Look, someone with a brain!
1. Saying that it's implied is reading far more into it than was intended but I can see I'm not getting through to you anyways, so.
2. And I ask for the third time - how was I targeting Ender? The only thing I've posted in relation to him since last night's fiasco was my reply to Panda's post, in which I disagreed with them in my first paragraph and brought up a possibility in the second. A possibility that is pretty unlikely, sure, but a possibility nonetheless. Other than that, when I talked about Ender previously, I town-read him.
Most likely Call Me Daniel. I don't think if Kat were scum she'd be pushing me this hard - why bother when I'm most likely getting lynched? I need to read back and re-evaluate, though.I swear to god, I wasn't lurking. If I was, I would've spoken up way sooner.
And wouldn't you be PO'd if you woke up 30 minutes before lynch to find out that one person (Ender) decided another was innocent (Kat), so everybody switched to you without question?
See, this whole 'process of elimination' thing really bothers me. Because you're assuming there were two mafians, therefore one is left and they must be experienced. That's a lot of maybes. Not to mention that nobody's actually made a real case on me yet, just assumed it must be me for whatever reason.
Keep the questions coming though, Kat. I still have hope I can make you see I'm town yet. As for everyone else, I'd really like to hear an actual reason why you're voting for me and not just 'Kat/Ender is so I'm going to ride their coattails as they mislynch their way to LYLO.'
Okay. Let?s start from the beginning.
Day 1
Endless brings up suspicion on Kat based on her response to the question he posed her. He believes her refusal to answer the question at first, then changing her mind later & answering it indicates she was more concerned with looking town to Endless than she was with whether or not the information would be more harmful to town than it was helpful. Kat comes back and says:You could use it to stop fake-claiming, sure. But by agreeing to the trade, at this point, you had to at least somewhat think Endless was town. If someone tried to fake-claim, Endless could just CC. And nobody would try to fake-claim Endless? role if he?d already died. So really, there was no town benefit to learning his role.
Now, note the bolded part. Kat wanted to hear Endless? powers. I?ve already established above that there was little to no town benefit to learning Endless? powers. But, there is a mafia motive - blue-sniping. If you know Endless has powers, he?s suddenly a great candidate for a night-kill. And being a strong player, it wouldn?t be suspicious for him to die N1. Also wanted to mention a point Runeraider made that everyone seemed to ignore:
Now, I still think that everything I wrote in this post still applies regarding appearance motives. However, when I wrote that post, I overlooked the obvious: actual information motives. i.e., I was considering how each of them would appear to the other based on their actions, while completely ignoring the powerful information on the table that was up for grabs. That changes things.
Slammint then comes in, votes on the Kat bandwagon, and gets immediately pinned down by Endless. Kat enters the picture & starts questioning them. This line stuck out to me
While people were humming and hawing over Endless, you were the first one to seriously suspect him, and also the first one to vote for him (not including Ender?s LOLvote). Ender agreed with you, and thus starts the bandwagon. Ding, dong, the witch is dead. Except he wasn't a witch, was he?
Night 1
Acknowledges the Slammint suspicions but doesn?t agree to them in subsequent posts. Also writes off the bandwagon vote for her.
Then, you post your reads. Pretty straightforward, then this:If you thought Slammint was alright, why did you put them as second-most suspicious? It makes you look good now that Slammint?s flipped red. Slammint then town-reads you (again). A point you keep driving for your case against me, but it applies to you too?More defending of Slammint.
In regards to Trojan:
Then, your next two posts:Then, you go on on to push Trojan as mafia (really strongly) in this post despite having acknowledged them as a PR above. Do you or do you not think Trojan's scum? Can't have both m'dear. I also love how you posted all of this under the guise of 'I might die tonight guys, carry on without me' knowing full well you weren't going anywhere (unless Trojan's shot had hit you, of course).
Day 2
This made me LOL.
You then go on to offer yourself up in sacrifice to the mafia gods. Not sure what you thought was going to happen there? 'She's volunteering to die for us, how noble, she must be town. ;-;"? Still don't understand this whole bit. If someone wants to shine some light on it that would be appreciated. Also, this post is the second time you'd suggested a third party in the game. Trying to create a distraction?
Day goes on. Ender pokes, you respond. Everyone decides you're pretty scummy. Looks like you're going home. Then, you post this......and Ender comes flying through the metaphorical door to save your butt. Lynch moves to me, then lynch moves to Bloobloop. I honestly don't really blame him - it looks town to me, too. And I don't blame the new players either - that whole situation was chaotic. But everything else points to you as the last mafia member, and I can't ignore that on what was likely an off-hand comment to pass time until lynch.During the chaos. Might be me misunderstanding your comment, but if we mislynch twice more mafia wins? Not sure how that means we have (had) three lynches to 'burn through'? Just one of those comments that made my gut go 'nope'.Great, except this completely contradicts the whole 'experienced mafia' thing you keep pushing.
Night 2
The bolded is exactly what Kat did with Trojan N1.
Not much else to report on for N2. You questioned me, I responded.
Day 3
Now, to present day. Daniel reveals his reports. Kat immediately assumes I'm GF without hesitation. Ender follows her train of thought.
So there's my case. I was going to make a case for Ender's innocence as well, but to be honest, I don't see the point. You've already made your reasons for thinking Ender's innocent quite clear - they all make sense and I'm inclined to believe them. I will post a case if needed, though.
To give our Skype conversation some context: I sent this about an hour & a half after the Day 3 post & right after Daniel had told me he was the detective & had gotten a town read on me. Before this, I was pretty resigned to the fact that I was probably going to get lynched, after which there was a 50/50 chance of a town win. I was also confused & doubting myself & my reads.
Backing up a bit. D2, I thought you were scum & Ender was town, no question. Then, Ender suddenly town-reads you, with valid points and lynch changes. I had no idea what to think and was completely lost. So, I figured, if I'm super confused, whichever one of you is town probably is too. Crappy theory? Maybe. Which is why I messaged you, asking why you wouldn't even entertain the possibility of Ender being mafia. You came back with a list of good points, not exactly helping my confusion. Why did I ask you and not Ender? I was about to go to bed and Skype was easy. In hindsight, I should've messaged Ender, since he was the one I'd been town-reading.
So. Yesterday. I came home from work & spend a good three-ish hours reading everything through again & writing up that post. And I realized you were right. Ender is very much town, and I should've trusted my D2 instincts. But my brain got all muddled with the chaos of the D2 end and subsequent N2 discussion.It was, because I had full intentions of doing it when I started.
We were messaging, yes, after he told me he was detective. We were both confused and trying to figure out who was the mafian between Ender & Kat. I sent him my suspicions on Kat the next day, and he told me he would back-up my vote.
I messaged you to see where your head was at. I never tried to convince you to 'vote with me' (as Ender so eloquently put it). If anything, I encouraged you in the opposite direction, since you've been suspicious of Ender the whole time and I told you to follow your reads through.
I see you've made up your mind Panda... care to share your thoughts?
20 minutes until lynch.
Remaining town: Find each other. Work together. Ender's advice is sound:
To the two town who will be left after night ends: Have faith in your reads. Consider everyone's replies and all options, but also take them with a grain of salt - there's one mafian in there trying to get the last mislynch they need to win.
Good luck, town.
I considered both Kat & Ender end of D2 & N2 and I took your ideas into perspective but I never specifically said I was voting Ender. And neither did you, for that matter.
Thank you. Thank you for believing in me & Daniel.
Yup. My hands are still shaking 25 minutes later. (Though I haven't eaten yet either, so that might be why...
3. I have no motivation to pull off Sarasa/Labelle as scum during that one day. Bloo was going to be an easy lynch whichever day it came up.
LaBelleFleur said:
Interestingly worded. Funny thing that she's buddied up to Daniel, except no it isn't. Daniel PMed her that he was Detective on daystart and she's basically just buddied up to the Power-role.Thank you. Thank you for believing in me & Daniel.
Second time that the ALMOST lynches have effected her strongly.Yup. My hands are still shaking 25 minutes later. (Though I haven't eaten yet either, so that might be why...
