2012, rise of socialism in the US, and health care

[ATWA]

The majority of people in the US are idiots anyway. Who needs the government when we can screw ourselves up?

The government is the one screwing us up.

You can look at it and say that it's the peoples fault, but truly it's the governments fault.

"*censored.3.0* THE SYSTEM!"

 

[Micah]

We've made some poor choices in the past that are now affecting us. The people and the government.

 

[The Sign Painter]

You poor person.
You try to be anarchist but yet you fail.

 

[Jeremy]

We already have some sort of fascist-socialist hybrid. Maybe not as bad as Nazi Germany... but it doesn't seem to be freeing up any time soon.

facist? You know given how often we let the majority decide things I didn't consider us to have an authoritarian government.... or for that matter how we have a bill of rights upheld for people, citizen or not.

Fascism is collectivism and corporatism. The government has almost always been collectivist. And "too big too fail" is a corporatist idea. Bailing out failed businesses is fascism.

 

[Paige98]

Two words: Obama sucks.
I heard that he is making people who HAVE healthcare pay for other peoples healthcare who don't have it. Now if that's true, it frickin sucks. Let's all beat his ass senseless. No offensive, Obama.

 

[Sporge27]

We already have some sort of fascist-socialist hybrid. Maybe not as bad as Nazi Germany... but it doesn't seem to be freeing up any time soon.

facist? You know given how often we let the majority decide things I didn't consider us to have an authoritarian government.... or for that matter how we have a bill of rights upheld for people, citizen or not.

Fascism is collectivism and corporatism. The government has almost always been collectivist. And "too big too fail" is a corporatist idea. Bailing out failed businesses is fascism.

Fascism, pronounced /ˈf

 

[The Sign Painter]

Two words: Obama sucks.
I heard that he is making people who HAVE healthcare pay for other peoples healthcare who don't have it. Now if that's true, it frickin sucks. Let's all beat his ass senseless. No offensive, Obama.

I read on some guy's BLOG that on PAGE 83 of the health care bill they will REVIVE the DISEMBODIED HEAD of HITLER, inject serum turning him GAY, and ORDER him to execute handicapped OLD FOLKS who attend CHURCHES where LIBERALS don't agree with the SERMONS!

MAD Magazine Number 502: Page 20

 

[ATWA]

Two words: Obama sucks.
I heard that he is making people who HAVE healthcare pay for other peoples healthcare who don't have it. Now if that's true, it frickin sucks. Let's all beat his ass senseless. No offensive, Obama.

I read on some guy's BLOG that on PAGE 83 of the health care bill they will REVIVE the DISEMBODIED HEAD of HITLER, inject serum turning him GAY, and ORDER him to execute handicapped OLD FOLKS who attend CHURCHES where LIBERALS don't agree with the SERMONS!

MAD Magazine Number 502: Page 20

I don't doubt it.

 

[Sporge27]

Two words: Obama sucks.
I heard that he is making people who HAVE healthcare pay for other peoples healthcare who don't have it. Now if that's true, it frickin sucks. Let's all beat his ass senseless. No offensive, Obama.

This is a half truth, and lets face it this happens in other cases already. People who pay for private school already pay some towards public schools, just for one example. But just as in this example I see no reason why not to. People pay extra money for a private school because it offers something extra a public one doesn't. This is how it would be in health care, but isn't that better than someone not being able to afford his bills because he broke his leg and doesn't have the money for health care?

People in this country worry so much about their money sometimes it worries me. You are putting your money over a persons life, their future. It isn't even like it would be that significant of an amount if you make a certain amount of money. Call me a bleeding heart, I am the type pf person who occasionally gives money to homeless, but that is why I would prefer our government helping those people if they try, I don't know if that guy I give a dollar was a con artist, or a junkie, or worse, but still I can't help worrying if that person really needs it.

I think Jesus and Ghandi had it right about caring for the poor, why some don't see it I don't understand since it is in just about every religion. Helping others is just something we should do, especially if it only makes minor inconvenience to ourselves. I understand that there are worries that some will abuse the system, and some will, but most won't and those are the one's I worry about.

 

[Miss Chibi]

... My head hurts. .__.

 

[Sporge27]

And there it goes my fuse is blown I must retire to get a new one...

Curse you politics, and your vaguely opinionated definitions that defy the dictionary and change over time, and your ridiculous red tape, and the stupidity of all. You know what? I'll have a coke, and remember why I am AVOIDING POLITICS, as a career at least.

 

[ATWA]

Two words: Obama sucks.
I heard that he is making people who HAVE healthcare pay for other peoples healthcare who don't have it. Now if that's true, it frickin sucks. Let's all beat his ass senseless. No offensive, Obama.

This is a half truth, and lets face it this happens in other cases already. People who pay for private school already pay some towards public schools, just for one example. But just as in this example I see no reason why not to. People pay extra money for a private school because it offers something extra a public one doesn't. This is how it would be in health care, but isn't that better than someone not being able to afford his bills because he broke his leg and doesn't have the money for health care?

People in this country worry so much about their money sometimes it worries me. You are putting your money over a persons life, their future. It isn't even like it would be that significant of an amount if you make a certain amount of money. Call me a bleeding heart, I am the type pf person who occasionally gives money to homeless, but that is why I would prefer our government helping those people if they try, I don't know if that guy I give a dollar was a con artist, or a junkie, or worse, but still I can't help worrying if that person really needs it.

I think Jesus and Ghandi had it right about caring for the poor, why some don't see it I don't understand since it is in just about every religion. Helping others is just something we should do, especially if it only makes minor inconvenience to ourselves. I understand that there are worries that some will abuse the system, and some will, but most won't and those are the one's I worry about.

A little off topic..

But listen to the song "Money" by Serj Tankian. It makes perfect sense.

 

[Jeremy]

We already have some sort of fascist-socialist hybrid. Maybe not as bad as Nazi Germany... but it doesn't seem to be freeing up any time soon.

facist? You know given how often we let the majority decide things I didn't consider us to have an authoritarian government.... or for that matter how we have a bill of rights upheld for people, citizen or not.

Fascism is collectivism and corporatism. The government has almost always been collectivist. And "too big too fail" is a corporatist idea. Bailing out failed businesses is fascism.

Fascism, pronounced /ˈf

 

[Sporge27]

I think Jesus and Ghandi had it right about caring for the poor, why some don't see it I don't understand since it is in just about every religion. Helping others is just something we should do, especially if it only makes minor inconvenience to ourselves. I understand that there are worries that some will abuse the system, and some will, but most won't and those are the one's I worry about.

Free market capitalism is the only proven economic system to benefit poor people. Well, in a sense, it is the only type of actual economic system. Unless you consider a violently ran monopoly an economy.

Are you kidding? Capitalism in its purest form led to the great depression. It lead to horrible working conditions in the industrial revolution. Capitalism in its purest lead to slavery.

Capitalism alone is not the answer. It does make sense sometimes but what it neglects is how greedy some people are, and how given the chance one person might take advantage of another.

Just because we live in one of the most successful countries in the world that claims to be capitalistic, doesn't mean we always are, nor that we always should be. Fact is just because something has worked the best so far proves it is the best about as much as a horse and buggy proved itself better than cars because it was the best form of transportation of its time.

Capitalism has worked out best because every other system has been hijacked by a dictator or a group of people at one time or another. The reason the US thrived is because we were a country founded on freedom, which is possible without pure capitalism. Well because it was founded on freedom, and that it's most devastating war was against itself... Really we haven't had a war on our mainland since the civil war, the only thing close is pearl harbor.

and now I don't think complete sentences I make, I am tired. Though I still disagree on how our consider our nation fascist. I leave that up to people reading its definition and interpreting it themselves. Largest thing I am against is how you say the constitution means nothing. It does control things through our lovely judicial system. The fact that there are exceptions are only natural, I believe there can be exceptions to laws without undermining their meaning or purpose. Remembering what your main argument here most likely is the 10th amendment. But as was decided as far back as Washington, Hamilton, and Jefferson implied powers were decidedly allowed. Powers to regulate things as deemed needed.

I don't know. I am not in politics, but I care about people and I just wish we would consider helping each other out more. If everyone gave money to the right charities, and volunteered for good projects, I don't think anyone would worry about where their next meal comes from or how they were going to pay for a medical bill. But people are lazy, both those who have food and those who don't. I just wish more would care as I do sometimes, and I see this health care as a way people can help without having to put forth much effort. I suppose it is wrong to force charity, but I still think it is better than materialism.

 

[Jeremy]

I think Jesus and Ghandi had it right about caring for the poor, why some don't see it I don't understand since it is in just about every religion. Helping others is just something we should do, especially if it only makes minor inconvenience to ourselves. I understand that there are worries that some will abuse the system, and some will, but most won't and those are the one's I worry about.

Free market capitalism is the only proven economic system to benefit poor people. Well, in a sense, it is the only type of actual economic system. Unless you consider a violently ran monopoly an economy.

Are you kidding? Capitalism in its purest form led to the great depression. It lead to horrible working conditions in the industrial revolution. Capitalism in its purest lead to slavery.

Capitalism alone is not the answer. It does make sense sometimes but what it neglects is how greedy some people are, and how given the chance one person might take advantage of another.

Just because we live in one of the most successful countries in the world that claims to be capitalistic, doesn't mean we always are, nor that we always should be. Fact is just because something has worked the best so far proves it is the best about as much as a horse and buggy proved itself better than cars because it was the best form of transportation of its time.

Capitalism has worked out best because every other system has been hijacked by a dictator or a group of people at one time or another. The reason the US thrived is because we were a country founded on freedom, which is possible without pure capitalism. Well because it was founded on freedom, and that it's most devastating war was against itself... Really we haven't had a war on our mainland since the civil war, the only thing close is pearl harbor.

and now I don't think complete sentences I make, I am tired. Though I still disagree on how our consider our nation fascist. I leave that up to people reading its definition and interpreting it themselves.

No, just the opposite. Government regulation created the Great Depression. http://mises.org/rothbard/agd.pdf If you don't want to read that, perhaps I can convince you with basic logic about the federal government: The Hoover and Roosevelt administrations were in charge during the depression. They both attempted to control the economy. Go back several years to the depression of the 20s. You probably never heard of it because it only lasted a year. It ended so quickly because the government did not try to control the economy like Hoover and Roosevelt did. (edit: found a presentation on this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czcUmnsprQI ) This happened at least two other times too. During the van Buren administration and during the Cleveland administration. The current financial crisis is like the Hoover and Roosevelt example. Except this time Bush was Hoover, Obama is Roosevelt. And no that's not a compliment to Obama... contrary to what public education teaches, Roosevelt deepened the depression greatly.

These examples are just a bit of American History. Thousands of scenarios around the world have shown us that freedom is good and government control is bad.

The reason the US thrived is because we were a country founded on freedom, which is possible without pure capitalism.

You can't say that because free market capitalism is freedom. You are either controlled by a government or not. And it's implied that government control is the negation of freedom. But I hope we aren't just debating over semantics. Let's be clear on what free market capitalism is:

"A free market is a market without economic intervention and regulation by government except to regulate against force or fraud. The terminology is used by economists and in popular culture. A free market requires protection of property rights, but no regulation, no subsidization, no single monetary system, and no governmental monopolies. It is the opposite of a controlled market, where the government regulates prices or how property is used."

Let me bring up a question: How can a violently-ran monopoly ever create prosperity?

And what about some basic economic principles: What creates prosperity? Government trying to spread wealth or innovation from competition?

Old clip of Friedman on greed -
<object type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width="250" height="250" data='http://www.youtube.com/v/76frHHpoNFs'>
<param name='AllowScriptAccess' value='never' />
<param name='wmode' value='transparent' />
<param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/76frHHpoNFs' /><param name='play' value='true' />
<param name='loop' value='true' /><param name='quality' value='high' /></object>

On the current economic collapse -
<object type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width="250" height="250" data='http://www.youtube.com/v/EgMclXX5msc'>
<param name='AllowScriptAccess' value='never' />
<param name='wmode' value='transparent' />
<param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/EgMclXX5msc' /><param name='play' value='true' />
<param name='loop' value='true' /><param name='quality' value='high' /></object>

Depression of the 20s (video I linked to above) -
<object type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width="250" height="250" data='http://www.youtube.com/v/czcUmnsprQI'>
<param name='AllowScriptAccess' value='never' />
<param name='wmode' value='transparent' />
<param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/czcUmnsprQI' /><param name='play' value='true' />
<param name='loop' value='true' /><param name='quality' value='high' /></object>

More philosophical / broad -
<object type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width="250" height="250" data='http://www.youtube.com/v/8z1buym2xUM'>
<param name='AllowScriptAccess' value='never' />
<param name='wmode' value='transparent' />
<param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/8z1buym2xUM' /><param name='play' value='true' />
<param name='loop' value='true' /><param name='quality' value='high' /></object>

 

[ATWA]

On to 2012?

 

[Pear]

Sporge, I think you're the first person I've ever met who has my exact same views, so I won't bother to repost everything he's said. Second of all, what's so bad about socialism? If you're rich and paranoid all your money's going to be taken away, it's not. Social classes still exist in socialism. It just helps people who are less fortunate get back on their feet. People say this will put us further in debt. Wrong. Look at Sweden, for example. They have socialistic healthcare, and they're in the top 10 best in the world, (The US is around 35) Both parents get a year of maternity leave per child, versus 6 weeks in the US. They have a very high standard of living, and the average person makes $36,000 a year, if I remember correctly. They have a very generous welfare system, a good education system, and telecommunications system. And, they have a three billion dollar surplus. Where has capitalism got us? A quadrillion dollars in debt. Most of that cost is from an unnecessarily humongous military, the results of a pent up paranoia of everything beyond our borders,

As for 2012, it's a load of crap. The Mayans never predicted a doomsday, they just stopped their calendar there. And even if they had, who cares? The lived 2,000 years ago, how would they know?

 

[Jeremy]

Sporge, I think you're the first person I've ever met who has my exact same views, so I won't bother to repost everything he's said. Second of all, what's so bad about socialism? If you're rich and paranoid all your money's going to be taken away, it's not. Social classes still exist in socialism. It just helps people who are less fortunate get back on their feet. People say this will put us further in debt. Wrong. Look at Sweden, for example. They have socialistic healthcare, and they're in the top 10 best in the world, (The US is around 35) Both parents get a year of maternity leave per child, versus 6 weeks in the US. They have a very high standard of living, and the average person makes $36,000 a year, if I remember correctly. They have a very generous welfare system, a good education system, and telecommunications system. And, they have a three billion dollar surplus. Where has capitalism got us? A quadrillion dollars in debt. Most of that cost is from an unnecessarily humongous military, the results of a pent up paranoia of everything beyond our borders,

As for 2012, it's a load of crap. The Mayans never predicted a doomsday, they just stopped their calendar there. And even if they had, who cares? The lived 2,000 years ago, how would they know?

I guess you're not aware that Sweden is trying to privatize their health care system because it has been such a failure.

For much of the 20th century, Sweden had a single-payer system of health care in which the government paid almost all health care costs. Like other nations with a single-payer system, Sweden has had to deal with the problem of ever-growing health care expenses causing a strain on government budgets. It has dealt with this problem by rationing health care - instituting waiting lists for medical appointments and surgery.

Sweden stands not merely as a warning about single-payer systems, but also as an example of what happens when market-based reform of such systems do not go far enough.

In the 1990s, Sweden set about reforming its health care system by introducing aspects of privatization. These reforms were limited, however, and the old problems with waiting lists and rising costs had re-emerged by the beginning of this decade.

The experience of Sweden demonstrates that when a nation adopts market-oriented reform for its health care system, the reforms will fail if the market is not permitted to work.

And the reason why our system is so bad now is because it *is* in fact already ran by the government for the most part.

And if you want to read more about why Socialism is so bad, here's a 450 page book you can read for free online. http://mises.org/books/socialism.pdf

But once again, I don't want this to be a debate over words. So let's agree on a definition of Socialism. Socialism, Fascism, and Communism are all different methods of government control over people. The selling point is that the government is just trying to control the economy, but this really means it is trying to centrally plan human action, which is impossible. Millions have died because of government intervention. Freedom is the only humane system. Controlling others at gun point is not moral.

 

[ATWA]

Sporge, I think you're the first person I've ever met who has my exact same views, so I won't bother to repost everything he's said. Second of all, what's so bad about socialism? If you're rich and paranoid all your money's going to be taken away, it's not. Social classes still exist in socialism. It just helps people who are less fortunate get back on their feet. People say this will put us further in debt. Wrong. Look at Sweden, for example. They have socialistic healthcare, and they're in the top 10 best in the world, (The US is around 35) Both parents get a year of maternity leave per child, versus 6 weeks in the US. They have a very high standard of living, and the average person makes $36,000 a year, if I remember correctly. They have a very generous welfare system, a good education system, and telecommunications system. And, they have a three billion dollar surplus. Where has capitalism got us? A quadrillion dollars in debt. Most of that cost is from an unnecessarily humongous military, the results of a pent up paranoia of everything beyond our borders,

As for 2012, it's a load of crap. The Mayans never predicted a doomsday, they just stopped their calendar there. And even if they had, who cares? The lived 2,000 years ago, how would they know?

Because they were accurate with other things. They kept extremely detailed astronomical records of the cycles of the stars and planets as they traveled around their orbits. We are in the fourth cycle recorded by the Mayans. At the end of that cycle will begin the fifth cycle. I think the beginning of the fifth cycle will be a new beginning or dawn for mankind.

By the way, the movie "2012" was terrible. If you haven't seen it, don't waste your money.

 

[Pear]

Sporge, I think you're the first person I've ever met who has my exact same views, so I won't bother to repost everything he's said. Second of all, what's so bad about socialism? If you're rich and paranoid all your money's going to be taken away, it's not. Social classes still exist in socialism. It just helps people who are less fortunate get back on their feet. People say this will put us further in debt. Wrong. Look at Sweden, for example. They have socialistic healthcare, and they're in the top 10 best in the world, (The US is around 35) Both parents get a year of maternity leave per child, versus 6 weeks in the US. They have a very high standard of living, and the average person makes $36,000 a year, if I remember correctly. They have a very generous welfare system, a good education system, and telecommunications system. And, they have a three billion dollar surplus. Where has capitalism got us? A quadrillion dollars in debt. Most of that cost is from an unnecessarily humongous military, the results of a pent up paranoia of everything beyond our borders,

As for 2012, it's a load of crap. The Mayans never predicted a doomsday, they just stopped their calendar there. And even if they had, who cares? The lived 2,000 years ago, how would they know?

I guess you're not aware that Sweden is trying to privatize their health care system because it has been such a failure.

For much of the 20th century, Sweden had a single-payer system of health care in which the government paid almost all health care costs. Like other nations with a single-payer system, Sweden has had to deal with the problem of ever-growing health care expenses causing a strain on government budgets. It has dealt with this problem by rationing health care - instituting waiting lists for medical appointments and surgery.

Sweden stands not merely as a warning about single-payer systems, but also as an example of what happens when market-based reform of such systems do not go far enough.

In the 1990s, Sweden set about reforming its health care system by introducing aspects of privatization. These reforms were limited, however, and the old problems with waiting lists and rising costs had re-emerged by the beginning of this decade.

The experience of Sweden demonstrates that when a nation adopts market-oriented reform for its health care system, the reforms will fail if the market is not permitted to work.

And the reason why our system is so bad now is because it *is* in fact already ran by the government for the most part.

And if you want to read more about why Socialism is so bad, here's a 450 page book you can read for free online. http://mises.org/books/socialism.pdf

But once again, I don't want this to be a debate over words. So let's agree on a definition of Socialism. Socialism, Fascism, and Communism are all different methods of government control over people. The selling point is that the government is just trying to control the economy, but this really means it is trying to centrally plan human action, which is impossible. Millions have died because of government intervention. Freedom is the only humane system. Controlling others at gun point is not moral.

I don't exactly think that millions of Swedes are currently being held at gun point in their homes. Your thoughts on 100% freedom sound more like anarchy than anything. Last time I checked, anarchies don' function too great as a society. I think socialism brings out human empathy for one another, rather than a brutal, cold society like you described.
As for the article, in a recent poll by popular science, Americans report waiting much longer than other countries, including Sweden, for appointments and operations.


@ATWA- Unfortunately I already wasted my money on it. It was ok seeing it with friends, but if I'd been alone it would've been awful.