Debate: Vaccines

[infinikitten]

honestly anti-vaxxers need to stay 230456 feet away from me

Another post that made me smile!

I'm not really participating in this thread so much as checking in on it out of curiosity every so often, but yeah. Anti-vaxxers make my skin crawl, and I'm not willing to engage in debate with people who just cry "BUT THEY CAUSE AUTISM!" (despite that being disproven, and also, wow way to be a jerk about autism), there's no point, so I never bother. Hopefully there's none of that going on in this thread but w/e.

My public schools, as I was growing up, always required us to be vaccinated before we were allowed in the building around other kids and I'm really happy with that policy, honestly. I would rather get a damn shot than actively be a danger to the rest of society. My immune system is already crap as it is, and I've got family members with compromised immune systems (disorders, or as a side effects of certain meds, etc) so I get to see first-hand what anti-vaxxers' mindsets can do. It's not a hypothetical situation for me, or one I can sit and detachedly debate about. Either you're a threat to our health or you aren't. It's black and white to me because my survival and that of a lot of my loved ones rides on stuff like this.

 

[Caius]

Due to an issue between my mom and dad splitting up when I was younger I was vaccinated twice (mom didn't get my records) and even if I have loads of medical issues it's not due to being vaccinated at all.

I've never had measles, chicken pox, smallpox, teatenus (Sp?), rabies, polio, typhoid, or malaria. I'd consider that a blessing in and of itself. I have had whooping cough despite being vaccinated but the chances were so astronomically small that was my own fault.

The argument that vaccines cause autism honestly blows my mind. The charts definitely show an increase in diagnosed autism over the last 20 years, but that's just it.. diagnosed. Most countries didn't have such easy standards for diagnosing it before, nor did we have this many people on the planet 20 years ago. The charts also show an increase in vehicle purchases, homelessness, poverty, and organic food sales but I'm fairly sure none of those are being linked to autism right now (even though it's about the same amount of evidence.)

Hypothetically lets say vaccines did have something to do with the rise in diagnosed autistic patients. (This is going way far off the deep end, so far we're in space right now) If I had the choice between my child being the carrier of a disease that was responsible for eliminating thousands of lives at some point, or having a mental difference that makes him or her perceive the world differently from everyone else (Not like that's a bad thing IMO) then I would definitely get that kid their shots.

Humans have a pack mentality. Every one of the pack does something for the pack. If there is any chance that one death could save hundreds of thousands of lives, you bet we would do it. Humans are also susceptible to martyr-ism. We usually feel pride making that kind of sacrifice. Not each and every one of us individually, but you get it. Knowing what I know, if it was proven that vaccines caused autism and I had the choice to do it myself (taking out the hypothetical child) then I would still get vaccinated. I would do it for the people around me, not myself.

 

[KarlaKGB]

guys maybe getting polio is the hipster thing to do, since nobody has it

 

[Caius]

I'll pass on that.

 

[infinikitten]

The argument that vaccines cause autism honestly blows my mind. The charts definitely show an increase in diagnosed autism over the last 20 years, but that's just it.. diagnosed. Most countries didn't have such easy standards for diagnosing it before, nor did we have this many people on the planet 20 years ago. The charts also show an increase in vehicle purchases, homelessness, poverty, and organic food sales but I'm fairly sure none of those are being linked to autism right now (even though it's about the same amount of evidence.)

The interesting thing is that the "link" between autism and vaccines was actually due to a falsified report by some hack doctor and several others who wanted to cash in on this; he wrote an article that was (and still is, despite the fact that we now know he was flat out lying when he wrote it) cited by a lot of anti-vaxxers as "proof" that vaccines somehow cause autism. Buuut:

Wakefield altered numerous facts about the patients’ medical histories in order to support his claim to have identified a new syndrome; how his institution, the Royal Free Hospital and Medical School in London, supported him as he sought to exploit the ensuing MMR scare for financial gain[...]

The entire piece discussing his fraudulent article is here in case anybody would like to read more about it.

 

[nintendofan85]

I support vaccines.

 

[Caius]

The interesting thing is that the "link" between autism and vaccines was actually due to a falsified report by some hack doctor and several others who wanted to cash in on this; he wrote an article that was (and still is, despite the fact that we now know he was flat out lying when he wrote it) cited by a lot of anti-vaxxers as "proof" that vaccines somehow cause autism. Buuut:



The entire piece discussing his fraudulent article is here in case anybody would like to read more about it.

I'm aware of the falsified report. I more meant it blows my mind that people believe it when it's been spelled out "it was false."

 

[Brackets]

One of the most annoying arguments against vaccines are the people saying that there's 'toxins' in them, like aluminium and mercury. Uhm, aluminium is the 3rd most abundant element on this planet. It's in breast milk, water, vegetables, pretty much anything. The mercury (thiomersal) is at nowhere NEAR the amounts needed to be toxic to a baby. It's ridiculous, the people arguing against vaccines basically ignore facts.

Also, the whole 'overloading your immune system' things is total rubbish too - the millions of LIVE bacteria that babies are exposed to every day is arguably more taxing for their immune system. Our immune systems protect us every day from threats and make antibodies all the time; a few dead or inactivated viruses are not going to overwhelm them.

 

[KarlaKGB]

thimerosal is very commonly used as a preservative in substances designed for in vivo applications. safely.

and yes, the hygiene hypothesis is legit. children shud have their faces rubbed in mud.

 

[Aryxia]

One of the most annoying arguments against vaccines are the people saying that there's 'toxins' in them, like aluminium and mercury. Uhm, aluminium is the 3rd most abundant element on this planet. It's in breast milk, water, vegetables, pretty much anything. The mercury (thiomersal) is at nowhere NEAR the amounts needed to be toxic to a baby. It's ridiculous, the people arguing against vaccines basically ignore facts.

Also, the whole 'overloading your immune system' things is total rubbish too - the millions of LIVE bacteria that babies are exposed to every day is arguably more taxing for their immune system. Our immune systems protect us every day from threats and make antibodies all the time; a few dead or inactivated viruses are not going to overwhelm them.

Some people are just incapable of doing proper research. Just let natural selection run its course c:

 

[Brackets]

Some people are just incapable of doing proper research. Just let natural selection run its course c:

Unfortunately that 'natural selection' endangers us too

 

[Tao]

u no ur 90s kid wen nobodi u no had mesals cuz wi al had ower injecshuns

lik n shar if u agre

 

[Sporge27]

>_>
I get it that some parents worry it could cause autism in their child... but even if it did, not getting the vaccines could get your child dead, and potentially endanger those around them.

I mean if measles were to mutate in a way that gets around what the vaccine does, that could become a massively spread thing.

If you ask me the people who started it are either incredibly dumb, or incredibly smart and terribly evil. (whether it is they just wanted more money/fame, or actually want stupid people/lower class to kill themselves off.

 

[Tao]

>_>
I get it that some parents worry it could cause autism in their child... but even if it did, not getting the vaccines could get your child dead, and potentially endanger those around them.

Indeed.


As far as I'm aware, if the myth that vaccines cause autism (and other well know legends) do somehow turn out to be true, then the chance that your child is going to become autistic because of it is much MUCH lower than the chance of them dying of something because you didn't want to get them vaccinated.

It's sort of like they're being told "the vaccine has a 1% chance of giving your child autism...But a 40% chance they'll get seriously ill and/or die if they don't have it", but they're opting not to have the vaccine because being dead is better than life with autism.

In my opinion, I would rather take that 1% chance of becoming autistic than the 40% chance that I'm going to die without the vaccine in the first place. Having autism sounds a lot better than rotting in the ground...




The percentages I used are obviously made up (as are the autism claims and studies) and everything I said is metaphorical and based around loose "what ifs" (as are the autism claims and studies)...But it's essentially what people are saying and doing.

 

[Brackets]

If you ask me the people who started it are either incredibly dumb, or incredibly smart and terribly evil. (whether it is they just wanted more money/fame, or actually want stupid people/lower class to kill themselves off.

actually it's more of a middle class thing. Generally it's the well-educated mums who sit at home all day and do 'research' on google, think they're really clever and therefore think they know better than doctors.

 

[Nyxia]

I'm yet to meet someone who doesn't think their children will benefit from vaccines. Thank goodness. Up until now I thought it was common sense to get your children vaccinated.. Clearly that is cumulatively lacking.

 

[TheGreatBrain]

I'm a childcare provider, and i'm seeing more and more children whose parents are against vaccinations.These same people are also against using sunscreen. I have been doing childcare for 20 years, and have never let a child get sunburned. It's getting harder to protect their skin when parents would rather them get burned then put on sunscreen.

 

[Murray]

I'm a childcare provider, and i'm seeing more and more children whose parents are against vaccinations.These same people are also against using sunscreen. I have been doing childcare for 20 years, and have never let a child get sunburned. It's getting harder to protect their skin when parents would rather them get burned then put on sunscreen.

god bless u for fighting the evil

 

[KarlaKGB]

Indeed.


As far as I'm aware, if the myth that vaccines cause autism (and other well know legends) do somehow turn out to be true, then the chance that your child is going to become autistic because of it is much MUCH lower than the chance of them dying of something because you didn't want to get them vaccinated.

It's sort of like they're being told "the vaccine has a 1% chance of giving your child autism...But a 40% chance they'll get seriously ill and/or die if they don't have it", but they're opting not to have the vaccine because being dead is better than life with autism.

In my opinion, I would rather take that 1% chance of becoming autistic than the 40% chance that I'm going to die without the vaccine in the first place. Having autism sounds a lot better than rotting in the ground...




The percentages I used are obviously made up (as are the autism claims and studies) and everything I said is metaphorical and based around loose "what ifs" (as are the autism claims and studies)...But it's essentially what people are saying and doing.

thats cuz there r more autists than ppl with measles, therefore autism is more of a problem so why bother vaccinating against measles

at least thats the potato logic thats going around