• The closing ceremony for TBT's Farewell to New Leaf event has been posted! View the winning entries and other closing announcements here. Thanks for joining in on the fun and nostalgia. We'll see you this Friday night for the start of our annual Easter Egg Hunt!

What is gender?

Status
Not open for further replies.
You are thinking of sex, when it comes to things between your legs. You are also thinking of chromosomes not hormones, I think? Most doctors both modern and even some from long ago agree though that sex is the physical genitals of a being, while gender is what the mind perceives one's self. I should also note that if you did mean hormones, I have near male levels of testosterone in my body due to PCOS and Hashimoto's, I still do very much feel I am a female.

Idk if you guys care but, research has also started to show that there many people who are truly trans show brain waves far more similar to their believed gender rather than those of their biological sex. I find this interesting because often we can be confused 'how' someone knows they are trans and it can be difficult to put into words.

On the argument of "why cant I think I am another race then???", race seldom has any effect on your brain waves, as seen back when white scientists tried to say that African American brains were not as efficient/good as their own. Race does play into your phenotype and genotype, but more in terms of just body structure, melanin levels, and susceptibility to certain conditions/diseases, rather than much to do with your nervous system.

Do I have a male brain then? I'm cold and not very empathetic to most people. Does this mean I'm actually a man?

The idea of a female and male brain is the exact reason people think females are stupider and more emotional.

It's not real anyway.. Here's another source.

I'm not going to have people justify the same misogynist thinking that made people shut me out of STEM. I was misled into thinking I had to cut off my breasts and stitch my vagina shut because I wasn't really like a woman, I was like a man because I was smarter than most.

This idea that gender is real is incredibly harmful. Sex is real. Gender is just bull****. Gender is a social construct meant to put the two sexes (intersex people are still assigned either female or male, do not use them as pawns in your argument) into boxes.

I'm tired of this idea that since I am a woman, my brain is inferior, because how I was born. There is no brain sex. How are you saying the idea that black people are stupider because of their brains is wrong, but the idea that females are stupider because of their brains is okay?

Trans people are fine because they have a distressing disorder (sex dysphoria is a disorder) and want different genitals. But they are nowhere near common as people think they are and it's all a fad hip and popular with SJW youth.

Many trans people agree with me that sex is what you are, and that they simply want to transition to the different sex. Not gender. Because gender is a stupid concept.

There is no requirement to being a woman to them, anyone can call themselves a woman, even the 40 yr old man who invaded my local female bathroom to masturbate in front of teenage girls. No I'm not saying ALL trans people are predators, but when you have NO definitions of gender this is what happens. Men will use it to their advantage and rape women.
 
Do I have a male brain then? I'm cold and not very empathetic to most people. Does this mean I'm actually a man?

The idea of a female and male brain is the exact reason people think females are stupider and more emotional.

It's not real anyway.. Here's another source.

I'm not going to have people justify the same misogynist thinking that made people shut me out of STEM. I was misled into thinking I had to cut off my breasts and stitch my vagina shut because I wasn't really like a woman, I was like a man because I was smarter than most.

This idea that gender is real is incredibly harmful. Sex is real. Gender is just bull****. Gender is a social construct meant to put the two sexes (intersex people are still assigned either female or male, do not use them as pawns in your argument) into boxes.

I'm tired of this idea that since I am a woman, my brain is inferior, because how I was born. There is no brain sex. How are you saying the idea that black people are stupider because of their brains is wrong, but the idea that females are stupider because of their brains is okay?

Trans people are fine because they have a distressing disorder (sex dysphoria is a disorder) and want different genitals. But they are nowhere near common as people think they are and it's all a fad hip and popular with SJW youth.

Many trans people agree with me that sex is what you are, and that they simply want to transition to the different sex. Not gender. Because gender is a stupid concept.

There is no requirement to being a woman to them, anyone can call themselves a woman, even the 40 yr old man who invaded my local female bathroom to masturbate in front of teenage girls. No I'm not saying ALL trans people are predators, but when you have NO definitions of gender this is what happens. Men will use it to their advantage and rape women.

First off, please calm your aggression. Secondly, where in the hell did I state EITHER brain was inferior??? If you didn't know, I am in STEM, possibly because neither my sex or gender have influence over my individual interests. If you want to disagree with me, fine. I think gender is real however and that sex is different. Intelligence and personality have nothing to do with what I was stating or referring to either. I've done my research and studied for enough years to be very comfortable with my statements I wrote, but am glad to further look into things.

This conversation had nothing to do with rape and your history of vilifying men and transwomen when it is not even the issue just because of your own bad experiences is not something I am going to humor you in continuing.
 
Last edited:
In a certain sense, yes. However, I'm not by any means denying that there are social norms and expectations for the two sexes in every human culture, because obviously there are (division of labor, expected manner of dress/adornment, etc.), but even this I believe is not merely arbitrary and does function within certain biological influences, though certain aspects of these things are also obviously arbitrary/culture-bound (as for example the fact that in the West as recently as the early 20th century pink was "for boys" and blue was "for girls").

- - - Post Merge - - -



Look at a dictionary from a few decades ago and you wouldn't have this problem.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Except that sofa and chair were never synonyms, and gender and sex always were synonyms in every dictionary until people started re-defining gender.

yes bc ppl have been McFreaking Wrong 4 a long time. gender and sex arent the same thing just like how chaurs abd sofas arent the same

also how are gender roles biological ...
 
First off, please calm your aggression. Secondly, where in the hell did I state EITHER brain was inferior??? If you didn't know, I am in STEM, possibly because neither my sex or gender have influence over my individual interests. If you want to disagree with me, fine. I think gender is real however and that sex is different. Intelligence and personality have nothing to do with what I was stating or referring to either. I've done my research and studied for enough years to be very comfortable with my statements I wrote, but am glad to further look into things.

This conversation had nothing to do with rape and your history of vilifying men and transwomen when it is not even the issue just because of your own bad experiences is not something I am going to humor you in continuing.

I was referring to the general idea that females are more emotional, more empathetic, and men are more logical and mean.

That's literally what the concept of brain sex comes from. What is brain sex? What is the difference between a "male" and "female" brain then? So they have different brain waves that mean nothing?

No one can give a true, concrete definition of gender without relying on "brain sex" or using gender roles, or using some vague definition that it's a "feeling". Gender is either not real or its a social construct like race.

I brought that up because you people have NO definition of gender. This means ANYONE can call themselves trans. Thats NOT what trans means.

I'm sticking up for real trans people being shut out of their own community by overzealous SJWs who are excusing their own rapists in their community who use being trans as a disguise.

No one in this thread has a definition of gender that makes sense. All this beliefs that gender is some "feeling" and that anyone can be x gender and that anyone can be trans is exactly why we have rapists in the trans community.

I've been in that forsaken community and watched all my dysphoric friends get shut out, they get denied hormones and HRT because their doctors don't think they're actually trans. Why? Because they get 20 patients who tell them their gender is faegender, that their gender is stargender.

Doctors don't take any trans person seriously anymore, unless you live in a very liberal trigger happy area.

Trans people want to transition to a different sex, not to a different gender. Everyone in this thread saying all genders are valid are ridiculous. Faegender and spacegender or whatever 23 yr old college students identify are aren't. real.
 
I was referring to the general idea that females are more emotional, more empathetic, and men are more logical and mean.

That's literally what the concept of brain sex comes from. What is brain sex? What is the difference between a "male" and "female" brain then? So they have different brain waves that mean nothing?

No one can give a true, concrete definition of gender without relying on "brain sex" or using gender roles, or using some vague definition that it's a "feeling". Gender is either not real or its a social construct like race.

I brought that up because you people have NO definition of gender. This means ANYONE can call themselves trans. Thats NOT what trans means.

I'm sticking up for real trans people being shut out of their own community by overzealous SJWs who are excusing their own rapists in their community who use being trans as a disguise.

No one in this thread has a definition of gender that makes sense. All this beliefs that gender is some "feeling" and that anyone can be x gender and that anyone can be trans is exactly why we have rapists in the trans community.

I've been in that forsaken community and watched all my dysphoric friends get shut out, they get denied hormones and HRT because their doctors don't think they're actually trans. Why? Because they get 20 patients who tell them their gender is faegender, that their gender is stargender.

Doctors don't take any trans person seriously anymore, unless you live in a very liberal trigger happy area.

Trans people want to transition to a different sex, not to a different gender. Everyone in this thread saying all genders are valid are ridiculous. Faegender and spacegender or whatever 23 yr old college students identify are aren't. real.

^^^This, this and more of this.

I'm glad someone sees that that sort of 72 made up genders is a big load of garbage. and you're very right, it does shut out actual trans people. It's not the right way to go if you want to be "accepted" by a community, or you want attention. In fact it's quite insensitive if you use some made up gender for such. I know trans people who agree with this, who have been invalidated because of all these stupid kids using their personality as some way to make them look more special than they are.

And no, for some people who are going to claim so, I'm not being bigoted. I'm merely calling out people who invalidate people's real feelings for attention, to jump on some bandwagon, etc. Maybe someone's confused about who they are, sure I get that. I'm sure one day those people will one day know when they fit in. But the college idiots who want to control the rules, get attention and at the same time give REAL trans people a bad name? That's low. And those people do exist. Ive seen it before and some of the trans people I so happen to know don't appreciate it either.


EDIT-Regarding your first point, that is also quite true. Either can have whoever's traits but people do have to realize there's things called hormones which do affect ones thoughts and actions. People automatically refer to this as sexism but it can't be helped if it's hormones. Everyone's going to have certain traits. Men can have feminine traits, women can be masculine but, which is fine, but hormones still do exist which will give people certain traits. And that's perfectly fine despite what some say. People shouldn't bash others for what traits they have in terms of physical sex.
 
Last edited:
Biological sex as gender is something most societies currently teach and reinforce through gender norms, gender roles, and assigning colours to particular genders - especially to children - at every turn. I have worked with children from all parts of the gender spectrum. The idea that a 3 year who looks biologically male but says - consistently, persistently, and insistently that they are, in fact, a girl is "too young to know what they're saying" (which is a common thing to hear from someone well-intentioned but lacking in any relevant background) is a fundamental misunderstanding of how very young children develop.

Neurotypical children by age 3 have already learned to categorise and discriminate (the literal meaning, not the damaging one) using multiple characteristics simultaneously (all baby animals that live on land, all baby animals that live in the water, etc) as well as subjective criteria (grouping their favourite toys in sub categories - figures, soft toys, cars, etc - seperately to their next favourite and then least favourite ones). They are well and truly capable of understanding that sometimes a "man" can look different to other men, but still be a man - or that that "man" might not wish to be called a man at all, and that whatever they choose to be called, is okay.

One of the reasons children are able to be so accepting is that they have not yet formed the - often rigid and implacable - patterns of thought that adults have. If a child is never exposed to different types of gender expression then it is going to be a challenge for that child as an adult to understand the reality that some people just don't fit the gender binary. My heart aches for those children who grow up in environments where they have no frame of reference to understand what is "wrong" with them, let alone aware that there are others like them - whatever their issue actually is - and help and support available to them, if they only knew where to ask to get it.

Importantly, there is a distinct difference between children who are experiencing body dysphoria, and children who express their identity in ways that conform stereotypically with their gender. They are not the same thing at all :

For these children, though, parental permissiveness around gender expression didn?t address the underlying issue: their gender identity.

?They don?t feel that that represents who they are,? Olson explained. ?They aren?t just a boy who likes dresses?they feel that they are, in fact, a girl.?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/conten...kids-are-being-rushed-into-transitioning.html

From a recent study of fully socially-transistioned 3-5 year olds, cis-gendered children, and a third group of cis-gender siblings of transgender and gender nonconforming children :

Ultimately, the researchers found that the transgender children were remarkably similar to their cisgender peers, discovering that ?young transgender children were just as likely as [cisgender] children to (a) show preferences for peers, toys, and clothing culturally associated with their expressed gender, (b) dress in a stereotypically gendered outfit, (c) endorse flexibility in gender stereotypes, and (d) say they are more similar to children of their gender than to children of the other gender.?

and

One key difference, however, was that transgender children ?were less likely to see other people?s gender as stable over time? compared to the control group. But the fact that siblings of transgender and gender nonconforming children were also less likely to see gender as unchangeable suggests to the authors that ?this effect may be the result of knowledge that gender is not stable over time for some people.?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...and-cisgender-kids-aren-t-that-different.html

Now, gender preferences in toys do not appear in children from birth :

Gender preferences for toys only show up after children learn about their gender. Babies show no preference, Brown says.

In fact, when it comes to the actual toys kids like to play with, there is more variability within a gender than there is between genders, says Sweet. For example, she points out that studies of young children have shown that boys are no more likely than girls to enjoy playing with a toy with wheels, something traditionally given to boys.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...ls-boys-childhood-development-gender-research

I really like the quote the article ends on :
?All toys are gender neutral,? says Brown. ?What is not neutral is the way toys are marketed.?

- if it's a toy for children, it is for all children of the appropriate age and developmental stage and above. If it's *not* a toy for children - meaning it's an "adult" product - then it's not for children. There's no biological or other reason to decide certain toys are for girls or boys.

But for young children growing up in this chaotic, marketing-driven, hyper-capitalistic world, they're doing the best they can to survive and grow and make sense of themselves and the world around them. The lucky ones are doing so in families that love and support them, whether they fit traditionally in the gender binary or not.

Our modern era didn't create trans people, gender fluidity, bisexuality, or anything else along those lines. These are things that have existed for as long as people have been recognisably human. They will exist as long as humanity remains recognisably human. In the past, we just lacked the science necessary to understand these complex concepts.
 
Your gender is what you look like.
Got a big bushy beard and manly muscles? Male.
Got big jugs and long hair? Female.
Some weird mixture? Ask.

Yeah, I'm stereotyping. Whatever.
 
Your gender is what you look like.
Got a big bushy beard and manly muscles? Male.
Got big jugs and long hair? Female.
Some weird mixture? Ask.

Yeah, I'm stereotyping. Whatever.

so if someone who previously was Male shaves their beard, grow out their hair and put on a dress they're a woman? Neato
 
Kallie has hit the nail on the head like usual, gender is a social construct. I'm going to try show back her up with a simple example.

Man: Strong, muscular, athletic, controlling, wears pants, likes CARS!
Woman: Stay at home mom, bossy, love shopping, wears dresses.

These are two sets of stereotypes, one set for men and one set for women. Now let's look at some people:

Alfred: Stay at home dad, loves shopping, loves cars, clingy and needs affection
Ashley: Bread winner of the family, athletic, loves cars, works in a blue collar job

Alfred is sexually a man. Ashley is sexually a woman. While they both take on stereotypes from each set, it does not change who they are: a person. You can be a male sexually and fulfill no stereotypes of a male gender. Does that mean you are now female gender?
It's incredibly stupid to assume that perpetuating stereotypes for the sake of perpetuating stereotypes is an advancing or progressive idea in our culture. I'm also going to be mildly edgy and say that if you feel the need to change your gender or identify as something else, you are probably doing it because you just want to fit in, validate your feelings online vs a society that thinks identifying as something else is stupid, or want attention. Or maybe you just don't know what you believe and are following the gender identity crisis because that's what you see online. Regardless, it does NOT MATTER what gender you identify as. Just be confident in your own being as a human.

- - - Post Merge - - -

also I just read the thread and I'm glad to see a lot of people think gender is just a social construct
 
Your gender is what you look like.
Got a big bushy beard and manly muscles? Male.
Got big jugs and long hair? Female.
Some weird mixture? Ask.

Yeah, I'm stereotyping. Whatever.

I don't really agree with you but I do dislike it when like... a woman (genetically) says he's a man, but gets offended when you assume they're a girl... even though they haven't done anything to change their appearance to look more like that gender.
I mean, there's nothing wrong with identifying as a male and looking like a girl, but don't get super pissed off when people think you're a female :///
That was kinda random but oh well
 
Kallie has hit the nail on the head like usual, gender is a social construct. I'm going to try show back her up with a simple example.

Man: Strong, muscular, athletic, controlling, wears pants, likes CARS!
Woman: Stay at home mom, bossy, love shopping, wears dresses.

These are two sets of stereotypes, one set for men and one set for women. Now let's look at some people:

Alfred: Stay at home dad, loves shopping, loves cars, clingy and needs affection
Ashley: Bread winner of the family, athletic, loves cars, works in a blue collar job

Alfred is sexually a man. Ashley is sexually a woman. While they both take on stereotypes from each set, it does not change who they are: a person. You can be a male sexually and fulfill no stereotypes of a male gender. Does that mean you are now female gender?
It's incredibly stupid to assume that perpetuating stereotypes for the sake of perpetuating stereotypes is an advancing or progressive idea in our culture. I'm also going to be mildly edgy and say that if you feel the need to change your gender or identify as something else, you are probably doing it because you just want to fit in, validate your feelings online vs a society that thinks identifying as something else is stupid, or want attention. Or maybe you just don't know what you believe and are following the gender identity crisis because that's what you see online. Regardless, it does NOT MATTER what gender you identify as. Just be confident in your own being as a human.

- - - Post Merge - - -

also I just read the thread and I'm glad to see a lot of people think gender is just a social construct

i agree with a lot of the things you're saying But i think that just because gender shouldn't matter or make any difference doesn't mean that that's how it is. there are still big differences between how people of different genders are supposed to act. being a woman isn't only about wearing skirts, it's about how you're treated and seen and all that stuff ..idk
 
It's fine to fill the stereotypes of a gender, but if you're not you shouldn't be told by anybody that your belief in your identity is unimportant or somehow less valid than anybody else's.

It has no impact on your life whether someone identifies as a chair, honestly. Just leave them to it. They wouldn't want to make friends with anyone who was going to persecute them for it anyway.
 
Amazing how many people suddenly become scientists and biologists when the topic of gender is brought up.

Science has shown that not only is gender a huge spectrum, but it is also indeed a construct and that we are all born blank slates. The whole "male brain" and "female brain" things we've all heard of are complete myths. The brain itself is basically unisex with the only difference being that the number of neutrons vary in a small part of the brain called the hypothalamus. However that being said, the amount of neutrons in the brains of trans men and cis men are of equal average, as are that of trans women and cis women. Even your brain doesn't care what trans people are "born as".

As for chromosomes, that's another thing that most people have completely wrong. The whole "xx = female and xy = male" thing? Yeah. No.

People who are AFAB (assigned female at birth) can have XO, XXX, XXXX, and XY chromosomes and people who are AMAB (assigned male at birth) can have XXYY, XYY, and XX chromosomes.
Not only that, but the hormonal patterns for people with XX chromosomes can completely mirror XY chromosomes and vice versa, an example being androgen insensitivity syndrome. So basically people can have xy chromosomes, testicles, a vulva, a vagina all at the same time with all of them being completely naturally grown. Also for what it's worth, the amount of intersex people like this mirrors the amount of people with red hair!

More on chromosomes, our chromosomes don't even determine our sexual characteristics. That is almost all on our hormones. Our chromosomes have a very tiny part of it.

With all that being said, there is no way to know other peoples' karyotype (unless they have distinct physical differentiations, which not all of them do), and I'm willing to bet everyone on this site doesn't even know their own. I sure as hell don't. You probably won't know what's in peoples' pants either unless you're in a sexual relationship with them so just stop with the transphobia and respect what people say they are and what they want to be called. It's not that hard. It takes so much more energy to be an ass about it.

Also stop using biology and science to back up your transphobia. They aren't on your side.
 
Last edited:
Okay people it's all interesting but the question was about you personally. Why do you think you belong to a gender if you belong to one. There are no bad answers, you may change your mind. you may not know. It's doesn't matter.


Also if the reason why you think you belong to a gender disappear, will your opinion change as well?

Examples:

your doctor tell you your chromosomes doesn't match your genitals, you are in fact genetically the opposite gender.

You lose your genitals in an accident or due to a disease.

Fashion change and all the clothes you liked are now destined to another gender.

All gender roles switch.


I would think, it would not change anything for most of people, they would still think they belong to the same gender.

No one in this thread has a definition of gender that makes sense.

I like that quote... Exactly, what makes sense to you doesn't necessary make sense for the neighbor. It's how it is...There is no absolute way to tell what gender a person is. And I'm bringing back the case of Caster Semenya.
 
Last edited:
i agree with a lot of the things you're saying But i think that just because gender shouldn't matter or make any difference doesn't mean that that's how it is. there are still big differences between how people of different genders are supposed to act. being a woman isn't only about wearing skirts, it's about how you're treated and seen and all that stuff ..idk

I'm just using those as examples to say that this gender is defined by these stereotypes. I'm completely indifferent to how the concept of genders is used or what social impacts they might have.
 
The definition of gender is that its a social/cultural construct. You can't have an opinion on "what it means". Sorry hunny, you're not above definitions.
 
People who are AFAB (assigned female at birth) can have XO, XXX, XXXX, and XY chromosomes and people who are AMAB (assigned male at birth) can have XXYY, XYY, and XX chromosomes.
Not only that, but the hormonal patterns for people with XX chromosomes can completely mirror XY chromosomes and vice versa, an example being androgen insensitivity syndrome. So basically people can have xy chromosomes, testicles, a vulva, a vagina all at the same time with all of them being completely naturally grown. Also for what it's worth, the amount of intersex people like this mirrors the amount of people with red hair!

I agree with most of your points, and I was already previously aware of the multitude of variations of naturally grown chromosomes, but I am curious (and I am asking to learn); isn't all the XXXX, XO, XXYY stuff just off chance genetic mutation? I don't know if it even plays into gender because isn't that all completely unrelated to the mind?

- - - Post Merge - - -

Okay people it's all interesting but the question was about you personally. Why do you think you belong to a gender if you belong to one. There are no bad answers, you may change your mind. you may not know. It's doesn't matter.


Also if the reason why you think you belong to a gender disappear, will your opinion change as well?

Examples:

your doctor tell you your chromosomes doesn't match your genitals, you are in fact genetically the opposite gender.

You lose your genitals in an accident or due to a disease.

Fashion change and all the clothes you liked are now destined to another gender.

All gender roles switch.


I would think, it would not change anything for most of people, they would still think they belong to the same gender.



I like that quote... Exactly, what makes sense to you doesn't necessary make sense for the neighbor. It's how it is...There is no absolute way to tell what gender a person is. And I'm bringing back the case of Caster Semenya.

I think you need to read a book sometime.
 
I agree with most of your points, and I was already previously aware of the multitude of variations of naturally grown chromosomes, but I am curious (and I am asking to learn); isn't all the XXXX, XO, XXYY stuff just off chance genetic mutation? I don't know if it even plays into gender because isn't that all completely unrelated to the mind?

Sure it is but a lot of people are stuck on the thought that only xx and xy exist and that these are what determine someone's sex/gender, and that women strictly have xx and men strictly have xy so I mentioned them.

- - - Post Merge - - -

Okay people it's all interesting but the question was about you personally. Why do you think you belong to a gender if you belong to one. There are no bad answers, you may change your mind. you may not know. It's doesn't matter.


Gender isn't one of those things. It isn't an opinion like "what do you think of dipping your fries in ice cream". If you're asking what gender people are, fine. But what gender actually is isn't something subjective or personal

Examples:

your doctor tell you your chromosomes doesn't match your genitals, you are in fact genetically the opposite gender.

This would never happen ever. Mainly because gender isn't genetic anyways.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top